Erin: Welcome to Hotter Than Ever, where we uncover the unconscious rules we've been following. We break those rules and we find a new path to being freer, happier, sexier and more satisfied in the second half of our lives. I'm your host, Erin Keating.
This is episode number 100 of the Hotter Than Ever podcast. What? What? How is that possible? Thank you for listening to this show and for sharing it with your friends and loved ones and for the beautiful feedback that you send me on a regular basis about how these conversations and me sharing honestly about my own experiences in midlife have meant something to you. Nothing means more to me than hearing from you that these episodes have made you feel seen and that you found me at just the right time in your lives when you needed an honest point of view and straight talk about reinvention and career and divorce and getting older, relationships, sex, how we're represented and not represented out there in the culture and really what it feels like to be a woman over 40 and at this place and time in history.
I love all of you so much and I am so grateful to be on this journey together. You have encouraged me to be more vulnerable in my personal life because I am more vulnerable with you. You have created a space for conversations that mean so much to me and to the other listeners of the show. We are just getting started, as the theme song goes. So before I cry tears of joy and gratitude, let me tell you about my guest today.
Today I talked to CJ Joseph. CJ is a kink and non monogamy coach and mentor who is all about liberating sexual expression and cultivating new pleasure palettes. You know, this conversation is up my alley. I want people to think differently about relationships and how they do them in this next chapter of their lives when they may want and need something different than what the conventional thing was. That worked for them for a time and may still be working for them.
But maybe not. C.J. gets off on debunking the myths around female aging, desire and desirability as well as talking about the taboo. She loves welcoming Gen X women into alternative pleasures and lifestyles so that they can experience erotic evolution and neuro expansion as they age. I am all for new neural pathways. CJ is a certified sex coach, life coach and cuddle facilitator and she has lived a transformational, kinky, non monogamous life for the past eight years. I am getting a little turned on just from this introduction. All right, let's get hotter than ever.
CJ welcome to Hotter Than Ever.
CJ: Oh. Oh, thank you, Erin. We should be getting turned on.
Erin: We should be. We should be.
CJ: And if we're not, why not?
Erin: It's such a good question.
CJ: Let's get turned on.
Erin: Yes. C.J. you come to us today as a person who is living a life that you have invented for yourself in the past several years post divorce, and it hasn't always been the way that it is for you right now. You lived a pretty conventional life for a long time, so I would love for our listeners to understand how you went from the life you had to the life that you have today.
CJ: Wow. You know, I led a conventional life in many ways and unconventional in others, but in terms of relationships, I was a serial monogamist.
Erin: Sure.
CJ: You know, a lot of us have that experience, right, where we jump from relationship to relationship, and it may not be the one or the person that you end up getting married to, but you're in a longer term relationship. And how I operated in those relationships was I shut myself down in terms of seeing other people. Right?
Erin: Sure. That's monogamy, right?
CJ: Yeah, exactly. And that's what you do, because that's what you see and that's what we're supposed to do. That's what we're told supposed to do.
Erin: Those are the rules.
CJ: Yes. And honestly, for me, I didn't feel uncomfortable in that. But those relationships also, once I've discovered that I had some other place to go or a growth that was occurring or that I wanted to occur, whether it was like living in a different place or getting more education or a different kind of job or just different, like, belief. I. That's often when the relationship would, I would outgrow it. Right. And that was fine, you know, but that doesn't really work in the model of like long term monogamy and marriage for people. Right.
Then I moved to LA, I got a job in the public sector, met the person that I was going to end up marrying, and we were on a whirlwind romance.
Erin: Wait, so you were married for how long?
CJ: I was married for 10 years. Just under 10 years.
Erin: Right. Okay. And you had kids or. No kids?
CJ: Two kids.
Erin: Okay.
CJ: The first was born on our one year anniversary. That's how fast we moved.
Erin: And so you were a virgin, you were a virgin when you got.
CJ: Hell, no. What? No. Okay, so it was like married after one year of basically moving in together and dating, and then one year later, child. Whoa. Like, okay, recipe for disaster. People, we need to slow Things down. We need to really know someone, because what's one of the major triggers in relationships? Kids, little kids, sleep deprivation.
Erin: It's not easy.
CJ: It's totally not. It's so hard. Right. All the things. It's way harder than anyone will tell you.
Erin: And even if you've been with your partner for half a decade or a decade before you have kids, it still changes everything.
CJ: It's. It will challenge you in ways you didn't even know you could be challenged. Right?
Erin: Right.
CJ: They will push all the buttons that you didn't even know you had. So at some point, when I began to get enough sleep after having two kids within two years, I realized that my husband and I weren't really connecting anymore. He was building a business and I was trying to build a family, and so grateful for all the things that we had and the privilege that we lived in and experienced and all of that. But it wasn't what I had envisioned, which was a very connected family, family dinners, things like that.
And in retrospect and through conversation and therapy together, realizing, like, his feeling of what he could contribute and his confidence was in the business sphere and he didn't feel needed, seen supported in the family world. Partially because of me and partially because I'm just under voice, like, feeling like under attack half the time from kids, you know, from, like, I wasn't able to be the mom that I wanted to be a lot of the times too. Right. So that's when things started getting yucky.
And then resentment started to build up because there wasn't the communication. There wasn't the, like, him standing up for himself and saying, you know, I didn't really like the way you said that or that look makes me feel like you're judging me or whatever, and vice versa. So you end up in resentment world. And once you're there for a long period of time, it's really hard to get out of that. Right. So we weren't being intimate, and I started to wake up to, like, something's not right. This is not what I wanted. This is.
I need intimacy. Like, sex. And intimacy is important to me as a human and really, like, top of my list of priorities and my relationships. So not having that was really an eye opener. And, like, I just realized, no, this is not enough for me.
Erin: Was that something you negotiated with yourself in the marriage where you were like, do I care about this? Is this important to me? Can I live without it? Like, were those conversations you were having with yourself or was it just 100% clear that there had been sex and intimacy. And then it went away. And you were like, oh, I can't live without this.
CJ: Yeah. The second part let me illustrate a picture for you. And I know so many of us can relate to this, that when you're feeling disconnected from your partner and you're in these different roles of parenting, you know, as a mom, as a wife, maybe a job, and at the end of the day, the kids are in bed. My husband was an early to bed person. I was not that person at that time. And I was alone on my couch watching reality tv, drinking a bottle of wine and eating a bowl of popcorn a lot of nights. And every morning waking up, feeling regret, disappointment in myself, frustration, sadness, depression, all the things. And realizing, like, I have so much more than this.
This is not what I signed up for. This is not where I want to be. But I couldn't really get out of it in that moment. But there I remember a time, I don't remember exactly what happened, but I voiced this to my husband. I said, I need intimacy and sex in this relationship. I need it in my life, and I'm worthy of that. And if I don't get it, this isn't going to work for me. So I wasn't really negotiating with myself.
Can I live without this? There was something very, like, visceral and that existed in me that was like, this is who I am, and I'm not willing to let it go. For all of the things that I have. And this sort of vision that other people might have of what my life was, that wasn't actually the truth. So we did have good times. Of course, you know, it's not all bad, but there was a key part missing. And, yeah, it was a huge part of my sort of opening up to, like, this is not what I want. And we need to move towards either coming back together or changing it. And it took us a couple of years to get.
Erin: It's so amazing, CJ because I negotiated with myself, against myself. Like, I wanted sex and intimacy, but there were so many things that were broken in the way that we were with each other in the marriage that I hid from the possibility of it because it had become so fraught. And I didn't have the faith and the trust to be open enough to have intimacy. And he didn't ever want to be rejected by me, so he didn't try. And we just got to a place where it was like a detente. It was like, okay, I guess we're doing this marriage without sex, without intimacy. And for Me, I didn't want to lose at marriage.
And so I wanted everything to look right and be right. And I didn't want my kids to have to have divorced parents. And so I was like, well, I guess that's just not part of my life anymore. Like, I could not have stood up for that in my marriage. Just. And so I had to kind of suck it up and lie to myself if I wanted to stay in the marriage. And I told myself it wasn't important.
CJ: Yeah.
Erin: Which my friends all knew was bullshit because they had known me in my 20s when I was very slutty.
CJ: Right.
Erin: Yeah.
CJ: So you. From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, I feel like you immerse yourself in work. Yep. So that was your bottle of wine and bowl of popcorn. You know, you had a bottle of.
Erin: Wine, too, during the pandemic.
CJ: We all did. Yeah. Right. And also, we glorify the alcohol that so many of us are drinking when we're miserable.
Erin: I talk about it on the podcast all the time. It's like, chardonnay ain't gonna fix this. Yeah.
CJ: It's only making things worse. And it's killing you.
Erin:Yeah.
CJ: It's slowly killing you. And the lack of intimacy is killing you. It's soul crushing. You are just like. You can say, I don't want my kids to have divorced parents. And I finally got to the point where I said to myself, I don't want my kids to think that this is a healthy relationship, because I don't want my kids in one like this. This is. We're not on the same team anymore.
Erin: Yes.
CJ: And that is not an example of a healthy relationship. We luckily had the recession. Some of our, you know, our privilege disappeared overnight, and we had to make some big changes. And I honestly, at that time, felt energized. I felt like we had a common enemy. I felt so like there was a chance that we would come back together, and it was.
It was bad time, let me tell you. For about a year, it was not fun. That confidence that my husband was feeling completely eroded, crumbled. He had to, of course, let a lot of people go in the business and things like that. And I've felt a lot of empathy for him and other people going through that. And. But for me, it was like, he needs me. He needs me to make his lunches.
He needs me to, like, be there at the end of the day when he comes home looking like he was completely washed upon the shore. Then once things stabilized and started to go back to normal, I was like, this is not like it went right back there, you know, because there wasn't intimacy during that period. But I felt like he needed me.
Erin: But there was teamwork.
CJ: There was more of a team. It felt connected it. And then I was like, oh, we're going back to like same old, same old. And I was like, that's a no. And he also was able to admit that to himself at that point. So thankfully for us, it was a joint decision. It took longer for him to get to where I was, but I was willing to wait for our kids. Right.
We don't want our kids to experience divorce, but we did it in the best way possible. We put the kids first. We co parented. Lucky me, lucky us that we were on the same page with all of that. Really, like, we did the best that we could for the kids. It's hard. So many of us go through this. But one of the benefits from a selfish standpoint of divorce for some of us, and of course, not everyone's ex is willing to step up to the plate. Mine was.
Erin: Or able.
CJ: Or able.
Erin: Yeah.
CJ: I had 50% of my time back and it was like, oh my God. Like, one of the benefits of divorce was like, I had time alone.
Erin: I was always so jealous of my divorced friends who had 50, 50 custody situations. Like you get to have a life of your own and then it hasn't worked out that way for me. I'm pretty much doing it all the time.
CJ: I'm so sorry. It's.
Erin: Yeah, but that's okay. I prioritize my own. I can personal life because I don't want to feel dead. I want to feel alive and I want to feel in my body and I want to feel sexy and I want to feel attractive and I want to feel turned on. And so, you know, and I'm sort of pursuing in my own way, which the hotter than ever audience knows all about, which is if you have to use the language of the day, solo polyamory or solo ethical non monogamy. I'm basically, I have lovers and they know about each other. I'm honest and it's cool and it's working out for now, you know, for now because I get to choose it. And also my kids are now almost, you know, proper teenagers and they can hang out by themselves or their dad can come over and watch them while I go out. And then I can have the pleasure of being like, I'm getting what you didn't give me anyway. That's horrible.
CJ: Horrible.
Erin: I hope he never listens to this.
CJ: Well, you know, if he does, he does. What are you gonna do exactly? I applaud you for prioritizing yourself.
Erin: It's hard.
CJ: It is, because all the forces are against us in that space. You were envious of your friends who were divorced and had 50, 50 custody, right? You could be like, guilt tripping them. And some people do, like, we buy into that, like, judgment, right, of, like, other people in their situations because we want some of what they have, right? And it's. It's so easy for parents, mothers in particular, to guilt trip themselves. And all it takes is one little comment and then you, like, take that on board. And every time you think about doing something for yourself, you're like, but is that okay? Right? And like, me and my marriage, I said, I don't want my kids thinking that this is a healthy relationship. And as a single parent, you don't want your kids to see you not caring for you, for not being who you are. And that is a human being with needs.
It's a woman who has desire, who has juiciness that they're just tapping back into. And it's like, look, I was in the desert for however long and now I've got, you know, all the rivers flowing through. I'm going to be drinking from all those streams. Like, that's how I see you. And that is so such a great example that you're saying, yeah, they don't.
Erin: Need to know what I'm actually doing. Nobody needs to know what I'm actually doing. Which is another liberating thing about being divorced is I don't have to report to anyone. I report to me.
CJ: Oh, can we talk about that? I was thinking about this recently. We hear so many cautionary tales, and sometimes I live in that space myself. Because being a single parent or being divorced and being a single woman in her 40s or 50s or whatever is not always easy. It's not always fun. It can be lonely as fuck. You can be touch starved. You can be all the things. And also, it gave me an opportunity to break through some of the bullshit and try new things that took me out of my comfort zone.
And, like, I was cranky and bitter about it some of the time, but then it was like, once I realized that I needed to change my mind about my expectations and almost like, start being like, what can I get out of this that's good? Like, what do I need? Right? And instead of like, being the. I love your podcast. I love your story, because it's not the cautionary tale of like, no divorce. It's like, oh, no, don't do that, because you're going to end up divorced. It's more like, oh, the opportunities that arise from being single that you don't have to report to anybody. You have so much freedom.
Erin: Yeah. Not everyone who listens to this podcast is divorced. But my suspicion is, if you're listening to this podcast, there is a freedom that you are craving.
CJ: Yes.
Erin: And there is a sense of agency that you want to claim for yourself or that you have begun to claim for yourself, and I'm fucking here for it. And I know you are, too, cj, And I feel like it is a big, weird, wide world out there, and people are doing all kinds of shit that you do not know about. About.
CJ: You do not know about. Yes.
Erin: That I would like you to know about. Because what it's about at this point in our life is choices. What are our options? What are our choices? What could we be doing if we knew about them? What have we secretly thought about that? We think, oh, no, no, never, never know that. Then we could actually go, well, maybe. Well, let me investigate, you know, which is why, like, I've gone to dating events and stuff like that and come back and reported to the listeners on this podcast. I went to a pleasure conference that I called Dildo Con, you know, because I want to go out there in the world and bring back the options for you.
CJ: Totally.
Erin: You know, and I think, cj, that is what you're doing with your life, and I really want the listeners to hear about the wild world that you have been inhabiting and how it's been working for you.
CJ: Yeah. Thank you. I felt okay. So I. This was 2011. Started dating serial monogamist relationship to relationship. Really never had to date in my 20s. Teens, 20s, early 30s, then married.
And then it's like, oh, my God, I have to learn how to date. And it's the Wild west because of dating apps. It took me a couple of years, and I ended up in another relationship. And I think back now, and I'm like, why did I end up in this relationship? Because he didn't leave. He didn't. He didn't leave. He just, like, I don't mean he moved in with me, but he just stuck around. He stuck around, and there was like a little bit of a thing where I was like, I got some of my juice back.
Like, I was already getting it back on my own. But then it was like he shared something really private that could potentially be, like, now it really isn't. But at the time felt very shameful for him. And he shared it with me. And instead of. I think this is when I had my coaching, like, epiphany without even knowing about it, because he shared this thing with me. And I. Instead of being like, I went, tell me more. And it was sort of a jumping off point for exploration for us.
Erin: It was a sexual thing.
CJ: Yes. Yeah. And then I started sharing, like, what I wanted, and it was like, I want to explore you being more dominant with me. And then we're just in this, like, whole role playing phase and going to workshops and going to clubs and do. And joining groups and doing these things. And then it was like, I started listening to the podcast. I'm like, wait a second. Polyamory.
Like, I know about polyamory, but I didn't really think, like, really think about it. But people do this. People, like, around me do this. There are parties that people are going to and trying things and having sex in front of each other and all the things. And I was like, oh, my God. Like, that's when I was like, ooh, the possibilities. You know, just like, I want to try some of this. And of course, tentatively, whatever, but also just like, yes, like, I want to learn more.
I want to discover some things. And that's where it all started. So for about 10 years, I've been on that journey and learning so much about myself and what I like and how I can fuck with the strength structures or the beliefs or just the containers that I've been put in or that we've all been put in. And, like, jealousy, for instance.
Erin: Yes. Okay. So this is big because, I mean, there's been so much talk about opening up marriages now that we're married longer, we're living longer. There's been so much talk about, you know, polyamory and multiple partners and being parts of throuples and all of these different things. And to me, what I would be afraid of would be if I was in a primary committed relationship with somebody, how could I handle giving them and them giving me the freedom to pursue sexual and even intimate relationships, emotional relationships with people outside that primary dynamic? Because I'm afraid I would be jealous and heartbroken. And like, for me, I can play now because I don't have a commitment to anybody. And I feel like I'm in charge and I'm the queen and I can do whatever I say, and you all can take it or leave it, because at the end of the day, I'm alone.
CJ: Yeah.
Erin: At the end of the day, I'm with myself and my kids, and that's my family.
CJ: Yeah.
Erin: But where my heart could cry about this. Like, where my heart goes when I am in a committed, emotional relationship. Like, I don't think I could handle being that vulnerable to be polyamorous.
CJ: Thank you, Erin, for sharing that fear, for voicing it because it's real.
Erin: Yeah.
CJ: And also for acknowledging that you are the queen of what you're doing right now and taking it down the road to, like, a potential committed relationship. You don't feel like you would be the queen in that situation. Like, you're afraid.
Erin: I don't know. I'm scared of that.
CJ: You're afraid of that. Right. And also, like, good for you for feeling like a queen. I also. I'd be curious to know if you ever feel sad or lonely when you're driving home from a date. And that person, let's say, if one of the people that you're involved with is in a committed relationship, do you ever feel, like, a sense of, like, well, they get to stay with our person and I'm going home alone to my bed Because I felt like that at times.
Erin: I don't like to play. I don't like to sleep with or have relationships with guys who have primary relationships. I'm involved with people who are separated. Or one person who has, like, an agreement.
CJ: Yeah.
Erin: With his partner. And that one is tricky because I hear a lot about how unhappy that dynamic is, and I have to set boundaries around that because I, like, don't want to hear about that. It's not my problem.
CJ: It's not your problem.
Erin: And, like, that's annoying to me. I get enough out of it that it's worth it, and. And it's all above board. But in general, when I put a profile on a dating app, it's like, I usually say, like, please be single in case we fall in love. Ah, okay. Yeah.
CJ: There's a lot to unpack there that is. Like, we can focus on it.
Erin: We don't need to. And we can. I want to hear your story first. But, I mean, that's just where I'm at today.
CJ: No, I.
Erin: And I also know I'm in a fucking evolution that is so wild to me. And I just have been so honest about it on the podcast with myself and with the people in my life, because I lied so fucking much in my marriage about being happy, about being okay with everything, and I don't ever want to be that person again. Don't want to be a liar to myself ever again.
CJ: So is that your Sort of touchstone. Like, I'm not going to betray myself.
Erin: No, no, I'm not going to betray myself and I'm not going to be with anyone who could betray me.
CJ: Yeah. So I'm sure that a lot of your listeners can relate to what you're speaking to or they have that fear of, like, I don't think I can do that.
Erin: Right.
CJ: Okay. I, I've been there and I was the person who wouldn't. I didn't necessarily have relationships with people that were in other relationships, but I had play experiences with people who were in other relationships or in groups. And I often felt very lonely going home and felt misunderstood because these people often were in long term marriages and they did not have any sort of inkling what it was like to be me, to be single, and to not have their person. Right. So if you're going to be a couple out in the world playing in these spaces, please treat other people in ways that, like, try to put yourself in their shoes, check in on them the next day, make sure that they're seen, that they're. They feel okay. Right.
Erin: There was someone that I was really crazy about who was not as crazy about me, and he was divorced and whatever. Like, I asked him, please check in with me the next day. He did, like, please, you know, all I want is for you to check in with me. And he did it once, and then the second time he didn't do it. And I reminded him and he congratulated me on having my own boundaries and saying something and not being resentful. But he didn't apologize. Apologize. And then the next time he, I saw him, he didn't reach out.
And I never reached out to him again because I have to have my own back in this life. I have to have standards and I have to hold myself to them. And I thought this guy was like boyfriend material. Like, he was so attractive to me, but he was not treating me in that way. And so.
CJ: Okay, yeah.
Erin: Like, I had to sort of be like her. Yeah. The answer's in the behavior. The answer is always in the behavior.
CJ: Yes. And how we override that all the time.
Erin: Oh, my God.
CJ: We override it. It's right there. We'd never want to believe it because we've told ourselves a story about this person that, like, there's no way you could.
Erin: Oh, he's gonna be different because he's this and he's that and it's like, no, he's actually kind of worse.
CJ: Right, Right. So, okay, so getting back to jealousy. Right.
Erin: Yeah.
CJ: So my marriage, my current marriage, second marriage, been married for over a year and a half now, but thank you. We've been in a relationship for eight years. And this. He was in Australia and I'm in la and this is how it starts. And I just sort of brushed it off at first. But I'm a kinky person. I was looking for my dominant. I wanted to be submissive with somebody and I had the vision of a DS that I couldn't let go of.
That's really what I wanted. The non monogamy DS is dom, sub relationship. For those of you who don't know, it's part of bdsm and I am here to be an example of what it could look like. Right. So we started this off and I was like, you know what, this is just strictly going to be an online thing and I'm going to.
Erin: You met online?
CJ: We met online. I'm going to use this DOM to help me meet some of my goals because I don't know why it helped. He's like my accountability partner. Right. Like, that was sort of my thinking. Like, okay, so I want to do these things and he'll check in with me and make sure that I'm doing them. And then we're going to like make that into some sort of like arousing, sexy situation. Because I like to be told what to do and told that I'm a good girl. Right. So. And also being.
Erin: A lot of us feel that way. Yeah, yeah.
CJ: Like we can kind of relate to that.
Erin: We were fucking trained to be good girls and to be praised for being good girls. So it's nice to eroticize.
CJ: It is like eroticize. Okay, so you get that part. So then I fall in love with this person because he's showing up for me all the time and really like getting to know me and asking me questions. We talked for five months. We knew so much about each other. And then I went over there, I was like, I gotta see if this is for real. And then boom.
Erin: You got on a plane. I got on a plane and went to Australia. Australia. Across the world. To meet a guy you met online who you have been talking to for five months. Because why, why did you go?
CJ: We were both craving what? I talked about what I was craving. He wanted to be dominant and he wanted that kind of kinky relationship as like, that was the kind of relationship that he wanted. And that's what I wanted as well. And he also had gotten out of a long term marriage over 20 years and he did not want to be monogamous. He is not a monogamous person. I would say his identity is probably non monogamous or polyamorous. My identity is not that for him. It's a little bit more who he is.
Right. He's very outgoing and he's highly sexual and just, like, wants to connect. Right. With people. So that's why it was worth it for me to go there, because it was like we both wanted the same thing. And I wanted to know if the physical matched up with the mental. Like, how many opportunities do you get for that? Usually it's the physical first. And if you're a touch slut or a person who's like, love language is.
Erin: Touch, and every man on every dating app says that's his love language, which is hilarious.
CJ: Which means he just wants to you.
Erin: Exactly.
CJ: But that's how I was too. Like, I realized, you know, I was touch starved and I was substituting sex to be touched. Right.
Erin: C.J., can I stop you for just one second? I feel like we need to define kink, because totally. I. The word gets thrown around. Oh, it's kinky. It's. I'm into kink. Like, what does it mean?
CJ: Okay, first of all, whenever we're talking about any of this, I'm throwing out a lot of words. Non monogamy, polyamory, bdsm, kink, dom. Sub. Right.
Erin: Touch slut. Touch slut. Never heard it before. Never heard it before. Touch it. Yes.
CJ: Okay. It's always important whenever you're engaging with someone particularly dating. What does that mean to you?
Erin: Right.
CJ: Okay. Monogamy. What does that mean to you? Because if I cannot self pleasure in your version of monogamy, that's different than my people.
Erin: Oh, for sure. People can.
CJ: Yes. I can't or don't watch porn. You're not allowed to watch porn. That's big one.
Erin: That's not monom. Okay. Yeah.
CJ: Lots of.
Erin: Lots of nuances to this spectator.
CJ: Yeah, that's how they define it. Like their partner watching porn is cheating. That's. That's pretty common, actually.
Erin: I've heard people talk about that. Yeah.
CJ: Okay, so kink as a different definition. It's an umbrella term. Okay. Kink is an umbrella. Think of it, like, queer for.
Erin: Okay, the community.
CJ: Like, it's an umbrella term that everything can fit underneath. So kink is basically anything that is not conventional but is sexual. And my. You know, I can get kind of cheeky with it and be like. But honestly, we all think that we're doing something unconventional and we're not because we all have some weird shit that we're into. Right. And it's.
Erin: Well and weird. Got to define weird.
CJ: Exactly. Like, it's not weird because other people have their own thing. Or let's say, like, one of the top fantasies for women is to be forced into sex. Doesn't mean they want it to happen in real life. Okay. But it's like, it turns you on. It's arousing.
Erin: That is taken to be wanted so badly that they can't help it.
CJ: Exactly. And a lot of men also have that fantasy, by the way, and that's okay, too. I think that that's like, we can get into that. Like, that's exciting too. Like, ooh, you know, if you've ever, like, dominated a man, like, how juicy can that be, too? So kink is the umbrella term. BDSM quickly stands for bondage, domination or discipline, sadism or submission and masochism.
Erin: Okay. That fits under range in those oars. Yes, yes.
CJ: So that fits under the kink umbrella. And also another one is fetish. So a fetish. We use fetish a lot like Hollywood uses it, and it's incorrectly used. A fetish actually is something, in most cases is something that you're, like, born with or you cannot control, and it erotically supercharges your arousal.
Erin: Like, so the common thing is a foot fetish. Right. Like, guys get turned on by women who got turned on by feet. I've never heard of a woman who has a foot fetish, but I've heard of a lot of guys.
CJ: There are very, like, unusual fetishes or seemingly unusual, but it's like something that's really, like, tied up in it for that person, and they almost have to have that object or experience or whatever, like, in order to really completely get aroused or to have an orgasm. Okay, so is that helpful for kink?
Erin: Very, very helpful. Yeah. So. And kink is not the same as non monogamy.
CJ: Nope.
Erin: So non monogamy or polyamory can be, like, layered on top of kink or layered on top of a conventional sexual romantic relationship.
CJ: Yes. Not all non monogamous people are kinky. Not all kinky people are non monogamous. Non monogamy is a relationship style. Like monogamy, even though is the default and the expectation. It is. It is a relationship style, and you can choose it or not. So getting back to jealousy, I would like to just put this out there because I think that we have this idea that is a.
It's a fallacy that we have control over Someone's attraction to us or their commitment to us. And ultimately both of us have experienced divorce and other relationship breakups. We don't have control over this person in marriage. A document that you sign, rings that you wear, collars that you wear, whatever, do not mean automatically that it's forever and that you have some control over that person.
Erin: So even if you get a tattoo of the, of their name on your face, you do not have control over how committed or monogamous or what devoted you are to each other.
CJ: Non monogamy has existed forever because. And it was called cheating. I mean look at Ashley Madison.
Erin: Yes.
CJ: Look at the things. Okay. It's just there. Like I look at it like I cannot control this person. So I enter into this relationship with this dom in Australia, long distance, who doesn't want to be monogamous. Sure. Sign me up for that.
Erin: You know, hell yes to that sounds really complicated.
CJ: And it was fucking terrifying at times because he would share with me that he was going on a date and I would get really super nervous because we had conversations about a future together. We weren't there yet, but it was like, it is possible and this is what it might look like. Right. In terms of who would move where and all that kind of stuff. Like we talked about those things right away because I was like, I'm not doing this for kicks. Like, right.
Erin: If there's no long game here.
CJ: Yeah. Like I really was like, there's something here, but I'm, I want it like more than just like a one timer. So he would go out on dates and if they were closer to my age or his age were within a few years, I would get super nervous. And if they were submissive because that's what he was looking for, I would get really nervous.
Erin: And he's going to want them more than he wants you.
CJ: Or geographically it makes a hell of a lot more sense.
Erin: It's going to be easier.
CJ: Yeah. Like this is hard. This is going to be a difficult thing. And I, at some point I had to just let it go. I had to be like, you know what? I can sit here and be miserable and freak out about it or I can choose to be. I started to just build up my confidence. My that muscle of like letting go and trusting that it's just going to be what it's going to be because that's all that it ever is. And me holding on tighter isn't going to make him want to stay.
Erin: No.
CJ: His love language is freedom, I think freedom and connection. So I just said go Have a great time. Like, go. And then what I got back was like, hotter than fucking hell because I got.
Erin: He would bring you those experiences.
CJ: He would bring me that energy. He would bring me that desire. It wasn't like he depleted. It was like it just built. And he got to bring it into my world. And it was amazing. And it still is. Like, that's what feeds our eroticism.
And I have discovered I'm a pretty confident, solid person and I get off on being, like, taken down a notch. There's something about that for me within certain, like, with boundaries. Like, you can't talk about certain things, but other things, it turns hot for me. I don't know. Like, I'm. And I love playing with that. It's like, why not? Because I. I have the benefit of being with someone who I know cherishes me and adores me and he doesn't want to break me. He will break me for fun and I love it. And for our own, like, enjoyment and sexy time. But then I know that he will hold me after. And that's what DS is to me.
Erin: It's like, it's going very deep. It's really allowing your psyche to be eroticized.
CJ: Yes.
Erin: In a way that it's deeper than what I think is conventionally played with outside of the kink arena.
CJ: Yeah.
Erin: Yeah. And how did you know you wanted this? Because I. I feel like while I think a lot of us have, like, inklings of like, ooh, that's sexy to me or whatever, like, what did it take for you to be like, actually, I'm gonna go out and see what this feels like in my body. In my. How old were you? 45.
CJ: Yeah.
Erin: Like on your 45 year old, late 40s woman's body. Late 40s body, which conventionally, the culture says, throw her away. Not appealing, not attractive. We only celebrate sexuality when it's when you're 22 or when you look like a supermodel. My experience has been my normal body as a. I'm now 53, is so sexy to my partners. I can't even fucking believe the amount of time I spent hating my body.
CJ: Right.
Erin: Because I thought it would made me undesirable. Like the mythology of it. Like, my head explodes when I think about the amount of self loathing we are trained to have, the amount of scrutiny and cruelty that we endure from the culture. And then we internalize. And then you find if you're willing to look for it or you're open to the experience of sexuality in midlife. What is real. And what is really you and your turn on is the turn on of your partners. And that there's nothing more empowering or hot or sexy to me.
Nothing makes me feel hotter than seeing how much my partners relish that part of me. Without judgment, literally without a shred or an ounce of. However you measure judgment, whether it's a solid or a liquid, it's probably a liquid.
CJ: It's more like a fuck ton.
Erin: Yeah, it's a fuck tonight, right? And has that been your experience too?
CJ: Yeah. Yeah, I think. Okay. Going back to the early, like mid-40s dating. Oh, it was awful. And living in Los Angeles amongst the beautiful people and every, you know, body, beautiful perfection every. At that time, the sexy thing was the like, I look like a 12 year old boy. Hips and figures like really, really tiny.
And I was not that. And then the first hurdle for me was like getting over like that and ripping that band aid off. The first time I had sex was like the thing I relished in was that my body worked. Okay. My body worked. I squirted. I was like, hadn't done that in years. I was like, yeah, I'm back, baby.
And just like this, like, oh, yes, like mom bod. Wasn't sure if it was still going to work because it's been a while. But I knew I was horny. And then, you know, just like, okay, it looks different, it feels different, it's softer, it's curvier, it's fatter, it's like stretch marked, all that stuff. And like someone still got pleasure out of it. And so did I. Like, it worked for me and that's what I wanted. Right? And I just kept trying to go into the places where I felt seen, where I felt desired, where I felt aroused.
Now of course you've experienced this, I'm sure, but it's like the deluge of younger guys is intense. And it's like I was holding that off for so long and then until I got into a place where I was like, sign me up, I'm trying this, right?
Erin: And yeah, it's 31 flavors on the dating app. May as well.
CJ: May as well. Like, I'm over it. Like, I don't care, I'm good. Let's try this. Like, yeah, you're fucking hot. Like, let's do it. So but just feeling like scene and desire was like, oh, don't believe the bullshit. Out in wherever land, you know, all you need to do is pull back the curtain a little bit and it's like you are desired as an older woman, you are.
And it's not all about milfs and gilts and all of that. It's not just that you can have boundaries around. It's like, look, I'm not. That's. I'm not your mommy. I'm not. Whatever. But find someone, someplace where you are desired, where you feel sexy, because you are.
And being in public spaces, even if you're not being intimate or playing with others, can just be so hot to get dressed up in something that you would never wear in public. Like, wear something really hot that you feel super sexy in and be somewhere where people can see you. What that does for your confidence is amazing.
Erin: It's wild.
CJ: It's wild. It is amazing.
Erin: I mean, I, like, wear short skirts all the time. Like, that's my things. I have great legs. Like, everyone's got a thing, right? I don't have giant boobs. I don't know, Whatever. But my legs are awesome. I always wear short skirts these days. And it's like being a taxicab with a light on.
Like, and I'm lit up in my body. Yes. And they're all inhaling, trying to hail that cap. They're either literally talking to me or they're aware of me. When we are told that we are invisible.
CJ: Yeah. It is a lie. I feel invisible.
Erin: We are not.
CJ: But I'm. I'm not going to, like, live there, right? I'm not going to.
Erin: You can be invisible if you. I am invisible in some modes, but when I walk out with the light on. The light is on.
CJ: Exactly. I love that. I love that. And just know that that's possible.
Erin: And we all have that.
CJ: It's powerful.
Erin: Yeah, we all have the capacity for that.
CJ: We do. And it's confidence. It's curating, cultivating that confidence. Go where you feel good. If your relationship isn't making you feel good, like, how are you going to get that for yourself? Like, you need to work on that for yourself and desire yourself. Right. Be your own porn star. Like, make your own porn for yourself.
Honestly, I did a lot of that. I would turn myself on by looking at myself in the mirror while I was touching myself. I curated that. I cultivated that in my life so that I could gain confidence.
Erin: But, C.J., are you an outlier in this way? Because I feel like I. I'm so curious what women who are listening to this podcast are thinking right now. Like, oh, I could never. Oh, that sounds hot. Oh, really? I am, like, projecting out what people are thinking because I don't think this conversation exists in the culture and it is happening underground.
CJ: Yes.
Erin: All around us.
CJ: Yes. Okay. So outlier. Probably not as much as you think. Okay. That is bullshit. Like, that's a way of keeping us down. Right.
That it's like you are invisible. You're this. You're not desired because of your age. You need to peel back the layers. I do think that this is happening. I do think that I'm not unusual. I think that there are so many of us out there, and I know that there's someone out there going, like, yes. Like, feeling tingly right now, because that is them.
I'm speaking to them. Come out and play. Come out and play. Because you're probably in a box. And even though things might be amazing, your life might be great and you might have a good sex life life with your partner, or you might be getting your needs met in so many ways. What else can you do to have more fun? Like, let's make this fun. And BDSM and Kink. There is a sort of, like, looming darkness a lot of the time over it. Like, it's something, like, taboo, and we don't want to speak about it. And it's scary and it's predatory.
Erin: It's dungeons.
CJ: It's dungeons. It's darkness. Like, I'm super, like, playful and bright and fun.
Erin: And your partner is too, right?
CJ: Oh, my God. He's like a goofball. Right? He's a total goofball. You should see.
Erin: He's not, like, wearing all leather and carrying whips.
CJ: No, none of that.
Erin: Because that's the image that gets conjured.
CJ: And that's fine, too. Like, that's okay. And even people who do wear leather and are in dungeons, playing in dungeons, it doesn't. The amount of conversation and negotiation that usually takes place within a healthy kink relationship or community is beyond anything you will experience in normal dating or even normal relationships. So we need to debunk that shit about BDSM and kink because we.
Erin: That it's dark. That it's not about consent. In fact, negotiated to a degree. Wouldn't believe the questionnaires and.
CJ: Exactly.
Erin: I mean, you just Google. Google Kink questionnaire, and you will not believe it.
CJ: Yes. Now, does bad happen? Yep.
Erin: Sure.
CJ: And bad happens everywhere else too. There are predators abound. You gotta be smart. And dungeons actually can be a really great place to get to know someone because there are other people around and you can actually play without having sex and experience their style and feel like someone will pay attention. If you call red On a scene, you know, that's that.
Erin: I've never been to a dungeon.
CJ: Yeah. Oh, wow.
Erin: No.
CJ: So we need to transfer some of that into just regular vanilla dating. Right? So it is playful. Like, that's. That's what this is all about. Like, the age where we're at, it's like, how much fun can we fucking have? And what is that going to do for us as we age, age for me, like that mind fuckery stuff or just playing with jealousy, playing with what arouses me or doesn't or some sticking point for me, and I can push through that. What's that doing in here? You know, what kind of new pathways is that creating? How can I get out of the story that I've been told and that I believed and that I started saying myself and rewrite it and tell a new story?
Erin: I love that so much. Cj, I could talk to you for another hour, but I just want to ask you a final question, which is what is it that you want the listeners to this podcast to know about what their options are and what their choices could be at this stage of their lives? Over 40?
CJ: Yeah, you don't even know. You don't even know the half of it. And maybe kink does not speak to you. There's so many other options out there. There's so many explorations. Okay, let's just take one. Bisexuality. I had my first bi experience in my 40s.
Even though it had been an inkling or, like an attraction or desire, but I just. It never rose to the top for me. Like, I always dated men, and I was like, I'm gonna fucking see if this is for real. And now I have so much fun, you know, with playing. Playing with all genders and being in relationships and all of the things. Right? There's that, and that's a possibility. Like, what. What would it be like to test yourself in terms of your type? Can you be attracted to someone who is not your type? Can you be attracted to, you know, someone who's shorter or taller, bigger or a different color, whatever? Like, playing with that stuff.
What if you're drawn to spirituality and, like, you want to experience tantra? That's not my jam, but for a lot of people it is. There's like, there's more.
Erin: And it's a way into a rich, erotic life.
CJ: It's a way into exactly, like, find that they exist. They are out there in the world. You need to start looking. And you can work with people like me. Like, I'm a coach and I'M a mentor. Right. I have a coaching program called Erotic Evolution because it's about evolving through the erotic. Right.
Erin: Yeah.
CJ: And, like, where do you want to go finding that out? Because here's the other thing. Most of us don't even ask ourselves or know the answer to what it is that we want.
Erin: Right.
CJ: We're scared. We're scared to even, like, ask that question.
Erin: Right.
CJ: Because we're so busy.
Erin: Too much at stake if the answer is something unconventional.
CJ: Yeah. But it doesn't have to be. You can explore in your mind or in your relationship or in your attitude in a safe way. You don't have to blow everything up.
Erin: Right. But if you want to, you can do that, too. Hell, yes. Yeah. Thank you so much, cj, for taking the time to have this conversation. I hope it's been enlightening for the listeners in the way that it's been enlightening for me. And thank you for the work that you do.
CJ: Thank you so much for being a beacon in this world of, like, following the script. And, like, now you are just like, I want to expose the things. And I love how welcoming you've been to this conversation because I think it's important for people to know. Yeah. What?
Erin: I want women to feel free. I want women to feel free at the end of the day, to make our own choices and to feel our freedom and our agency in our lives. We get one life. Why not live it?
CJ: You say my favorite words. Freedom, agency. We have the agency. We just need to fucking use it.
Erin: Yeah, totally.
CJ: Thanks, Erin.
Erin: Thanks for listening to Hotter Than Ever. If you loved this conversation with CJ and it tickled some curious place in you and maybe woke up some secret thoughts you might have been harboring, or it's somehow aligned with a late night conversation you had with your best girlfriend or your partner when you were really getting into it and sharing your deepest truths, share it with your friends. Share it with your partner. And if you haven't ever commented on any of our posts on Instagram, start that conversation right now and I promise I will respond directly to you within a week. How does that sound? I will make that deal.
Comment on our posts, drop us a note, and let us know if this conversation about different ways of thinking about relationships and sexuality in midlife spoke to you in a particular way. Did you love it? Did it make you uncomfortable? Did it open your mind to something you've never thought about? Are you like, yeah, no, that's a fair response, too. Anyway, I want to hear how it landed for you.
Hotter Than Ever is produced by Erica Gerard and Podkit Productions. Our associate producer is Melody Carey. Music is by Chris Keating with vocals by Issa Fernandez. I will talk to you next week, Hotties, and let me know what it feels like to have the wind blowing through that open mind of yours.
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