Erin: Welcome to Hotter Than Rver, where we uncover the unconscious rules we've been following. We break those rules, and we find a new path to being freer, happier, sexier, and more satisfied in the second half of our lives. I'm your host, Erin Keating. Today, producer Erica is back with me for a conversation about men and divorce and relationships and domesticity and caregiving and a whole bunch of other deep stuff. And I am here to give you a warning. Consider yourself warned. That we are in our feelings, and this is a little bit of a heavy one. We talk about our ideal living situations. We talk about our ideal romantic situations.
I do give a little bit of an update on how my unconventional dating life is going these days. It's going pretty well. Complicated as always. You know, one thing that struck me during this conversation is how self conscious I am. When I recognize that I'm sounding angry. It's like there's no room in the culture for women to be angry. It's just unappealing, and I am afraid that I will be unappealing to you if I come off too angry.
I let myself go there a little bit in this episode, and so does Erica. It's hard not to be angry sometimes. It's hard not to feel frustrated and upset about how some aspects of the paradox of being a woman today, being a woman over 40 who was accomplished and successful and still kind of fucked up about love and relationships and dynamics with men and inside a culture that wasn't created by us, for us, this is not a fubu culture for women. You know, I get mad sometimes when I think about the patriarchy and how these forces are so entrenched and disempowering for us, even the most incredibly accomplished, fulfilled, and usually optimistic and successful among us. I don't want to be an angry woman. I don't want to be an angry feminist. God forbid. I do not want to be bitter.
I don't think I am bitter, but I don't think it's bitter to acknowledge some of the hard truths and feel it. You know, sometimes letting ourselves feel it and not always having to be so ruthlessly, endlessly chipper and optimistic about everything. You know, sometimes things just feel heavy and hard. So as much as I celebrate optimism and positivity, you can't always minimize that, and it's not healthy to do so. Anywho, I had this conversation with Erica that I hope you can relate to. I think you'll be able to relate to this emotional conversation. All right, let's get hotter than ever.
Welcome to a special episode of Hotter Than Ever, where producer Erica and I are in our feelings.
Erica: We are so in our feelings today.
Erin: We really, really are. You know, we plan to make this episode about new definitions for language that we think needs to be revised. Like words like, oh, I don't know, menopause, perimenopause. This is my list. Low libido. Childless cat ladies. Self care. I'd like to redefine midlife. These are-we're going to do that episode.
Erica:Â Wellness.
Erin: Well, fuck you, wellness. But what we found when we got on the line together today is that we are both feeling all kinds of things about the role of women in our culture. How we sit in our own lives in relationship to men, the men we love, the men we're in business with, the men we're partnered with, in my case, my lovers. It's. The shit is so complicated. And, Erica, maybe you can start with reading from this book that has been inspiring you, which is. Everyone is freaking out about this book about divorce called liars.
Erica: Yes. So I just finished reading "Liars" by Sara Manguso, and it's not new subject matter. The subject matter is about divorce, but it is the most piercing, honest, gut wrenching, revelatory, and so well written book I've ever read on marriage and divorce.
Erin: Everyone is saying this to me, and for some reason, I cannot bring myself to read it. I feel like. I don't know. I just don't want to cry that hard. I just. I feel like it's gonna, like, turn me inside out.
Erica: It's more. It's not a crying book. It's more of a rage book. You're a fly on the wall to a ridiculously white, privileged male figure who says all the things we've heard them say, all the gaslighty things, all the. All the control issues, all of the defensiveness, all the things that we all complain about, as rightfully so, in relationships. But her point of view is so fascinating because she doesn't leave, and I. So she stays. And that. It brings up a lot of questions about that, too, about staying.
Erin: I stayed. I stayed for 17 years. I could cry right now. I stayed for 17 fucking years inside a relationship where I was suffering every single day. And I read shit on Instagram that's like, if you're feeling like you're suffering in your relationship, you deserve better than that. Or like, whatever the fucking platitudes are, you know, allow someone how you allow yourself to be treated, all of that stuff. But it's like, especially when you have kids, it's really easy to sell yourself out. It's really easy to convince yourself, oh, things will improve, things will change.
Yeah, I'm gonna feel something different at some point. What I'm feeling isn't real. Oh, I can deal with this, you know. Oh, he loves me. I know he loves me. He just has some challenges or limitations.
Erica: Yeah. Because we start out with the best of intentions, and I think, especially when you're an artist or a creative person and you. And you meet someone who also has that kind of whimsical creative spirit that meets yours, and you think, we are going to do this differently.
Erin: Absolutely.
Erica: We're not going to do this like every other ordinary marriage before us. We're going to rewrite the rules of what is possible. But what we come to find out is that patriarchy is so strong and the pull of it is so strong that everyone ends up kind of going to their corners of traditional marriage, and it becomes what our biggest fear materializes, which is that it becomes this thing that drains the life out of us.
Erin: Yeah. I felt like so much of my marriage was me resisting, you know, was me, like, insisting that I have the big career that I wanted, and he wanted that for me. You know, we both had ambitions. He wanted that for me. I wanted that for him. I wanted all his creative success. He wanted all of my success. Like, we were going to be in lockstep about this stuff, and, yeah, I felt like I had married someone who could at least relate to that part of me and who wanted a woman who, you know, we could stand side by side and look into the future together.
But what ended up happening was I was made responsible for everything he lacked. Everything. He lacked in his self esteem, everything he lacked in his ability to function in the world.
Erica: Yes.
Erin: And so I became hyper competent and resentful, and so I just kept taking more and more on my shoulders of, like, you know, okay, well, I'll do the taxes. You know, I'll figure out how to buy the house. Oh, you can't really manage money. Okay, I'll make more. Because he loved the kids, you know, and he was amazing. In the first three years with the kids, we had twins. It was like balls to the wall chaos. We were both trying to keep jobs, and my career was growing, and it was so intense, and it's just almost like, what's the opposite of attrition? It was like I just kept accruing responsibilities.
Erica: Well, what was. That's so interesting, Erin, because that is also her story in "Liars," she is the success. She's the successful writer. And he had to abandon his creative dreams and get, you know, a quote unquote, straight job. Straight job. And therefore, she was kind of expected to pick up the slack on everything else.
Erin: Oh. Because she got to be successful and happy about her own success, then she had to fucking pay for that.
Erica: And she didn't make as much money as he did as a writer. So. But my point is that what I'm hearing you say and what she's saying is, and something that I read from an interview with her, she said, women of my generation were sold a bill of goods for a new kind of progressive heterosexual partnership that for most of us never actually materialized. And so, you know, yes, progressive partnership, you've got this amazing career, but that doesn't mean that the partner also was progressive enough to take on the rest of the responsibilities. It still fell on you.
Erin: Yeah. And I also felt like all of the care piece of the marriage was on me. Right. Like all of the, like, looking out for everybody's feelings. And when I was seething with rage all the time or crying all weekend long because I was so overwhelmed and stressed out, I was punished for that. You know, I was told, you're a workaholic or you're a, you know, you don't know how to do love. That was a big narrative in my marriage. You know, you don't know how to love.
And I'm like, oh, my God. Every day I get up and I do so many things for you. I do so many things for us. If that's not love, like, then, yeah, maybe I don't share your definition, but you don't have go into a marriage with those definitions. No, you don't have that conversation. There's no, like, I always admire those religious couples who are like, and then we went and sat with the pastor and talked about what our marriage is gonna be like. I never sat and talked with anyone about anything in my whole life, any decision I ever made. I didn't have parents who participated in that way. I was so strong willed. They were probably scared of me.
Erica: Right.
Erin: You know, but, like, I didn't have anybody going, hey, let's, here's some things to think about to decide whether this is the marriage you want, to decide how you're defining the terms of this thing. And also, I think for the first few years of a relationship, everybody's showing their best side.
Erica: Yes. Yes.
Erin: And it takes a long time to get to the Muckley and the scary, fucked up stuff that's underneath for all of us. And maybe I have more of that than other people do. He certainly did have more of that than other people.
Erica: I don't think that that's the case. I think what happens is that our skills, our traits, our behaviors, our personalities get weaponized against us.
Erin: Oh, say more of that. I don't know what that is, but I'm upset by it already.
Erica: I mean, it's like the things that make us. Us end up getting weaponized against us.
Erin: Oh, my independence, you know, the things.
Erica: My independence make us. The women that we are, the ones that can get shit done, the ones that can achieve, the ones that can, you know, care, listen, make friends, pay taxes, pay bills. It's like, okay, at face value, those things are all awesome. But one by one, if you're dealing with someone who's fragile, who has a fragile ego and feels less than all of those things can be weaponized against you, because, oh, you're taking on your career. You then don't have time for me. You don't have time for the family. How to love me. You don't know how to love, you know, you.
So everything about us that our partners were initially attracted to then get turned on its head, and it. It hurts. It hurts. And that's the patriarchy. I think that's the patriarchy.
Erin: Is that what the patriarchy does? Is that what the patriarchy is?
Erica: Yes. Weaponizing our feminine humanity against us.
Erin: So part of me doesn't know if that's true. Part of me is like, okay, I see the patriarchy in that. Like, we don't own anything. Like, we don't control the boards, we don't control the courts, we don't control the banks, we don't run the hedge funds. We don't make the fundamental decisions that drive our culture. We are not in a position to look at all women and go, yeah, you need subsidized childcare. Yeah, you need no fault divorce. Yes, of course.
Take care of your reproductive health however you want to. Like, you know, I have a dream of Scandinavia where all of that stuff isn't in play. That's not even a question. Like, let's. Let's just treat women like full human beings and share the responsibilities and the spoils. But that's how I see the patriarchy. But I also see it showing up in the domestic sphere, where there's a set of expectations of caregiving. And if you are not a woman who prioritizes caregiving, what are you to the culture.
What are you in your personal life? I had a conversation with my son last night who was, like, fuming and fretting over the fact that he couldn't find his t shirts. He just could not find his t shirts. And I do, like, five loads of laundry a day. Like, I have. I have literally now hidden all of the towels and issued two towels to the children at the beginning of every week, because when we came home from vacation, within 24 hours. Hours, they had used every single towel. And my dryer doesn't work.
Erica: Clean towel.
Erin: Yeah, my dryer does not work very well. So you have to run the towels through three times.
Erica: Oh, no.
Erin: So for me, that was a rage inducing incident where it was like, I feel the least useful in to the world when I am doing five loads of laundry a day, and then I'm standing there with a huge pile of laundry. I am folding things. T shirts are being revealed in the pile. Although when he looks at the pile, I mean, and it's really hard to have a 13 year old son and be thinking about the patriarchy all the time. Like, he is fretting about it. And I said to him, babe, here's what you need to know. I always find everything. So if you don't find it, I'll help you look for it.
But I'm in the middle of doing laundry, and it's the thing I hate the most in the world. So you coming and complaining while I'm doing the thing I hate the most in the world sets my hair on fire. And because he is my son and not my husband, he's like, okay, mama, I get that. I see you. And maybe if I had a different husband, it would be like this too. He's like, I see you. I get it. I see how I'm making it harder for you. I'm really sorry. I was like, okay, okay, okay. Like, maybe there's hope.
Erica: That's it. I think it's the hope is that we raise a generation of boys that understands that every time they forget to do the task that's a assigned to them, that is one more job that a woman needs to remember, which just adds another task to her list. And does that make sense?
Erin: Like, yeah, of course. Yeah, of course. I mean, you see me drifting off into reverie about Eve Rodsky. I think about her all the time, and domestic labor and, you know, the, like, hey, babe, just tell me what you need me to do. Yeah, you know what I need you to do? Why don't you just do it?
Erica: Yeah.
Erin: Like, I can't. I can't believe how enraged I am about this. And it makes me feel so petty. It makes me feel so petty to think about how much I care about the unfairness in our domestic lives.
Erica: Well, because it's unfair in our professional lives, too. So we live with a world of unfairness everywhere we go. And the one place where we're supposed to feel good and safe and cared for is in our homes. And if we can't feel that way there, then it just feels hopeless. It feels like the world is conspiring to just piss us the fuck off.
Erin: Yeah, but we're not allowed to be angry. And even. Even I have feelings come up when we talk about this stuff on the podcast that I shouldn't be talking about this. Yeah, I shouldn't be talking about this because it makes me unlikable, makes me unsponsorable, makes me too strident. Don't be too angry. Keep your sense of humor. Don't talk about the patriarchy so much. Like, nobody likes an angry, resentful, unhappy woman.
Erica: You know, podcast host.
Erin: Podcast host. Right. Woman with a voice.
Erica: Yes.
Erin: Woman with a voice.
Erica: No, it's true.
Erin: And I. That's not what I want this podcast to be. But I also. I want us to acknowledge these feelings. I want us to acknowledge the anger, because what we know how to do is shove it down and fucking eat it.
Erica: But shoving it down, we all know, makes us sick.
Erin: Makes us sick.
Erica: So where can we. Where is there a place where we can be angry? Because we have to be able to express anger. We have to have a place where no one is going to judge us for expressing healthy anger. First, we need to acknowledge that there is such thing as healthy anger. That. That is absolutely.
Erin: It is. Well, we wouldn't have it if we didn't need it, right? Like, biologically, we wouldn't have evolved to feel angry if there wasn't a purpose, if it wasn't, like a pressure relief valve, right? You know, and I think, like, because men have such a lock on anger, like the marine used to say, we get horny and we get angry. That's all we know how to do. I loved his simplistic take on masculinity, and it was actually quite charming to me at the time.
Erica: Right.
Erin: I was, you know, just wanting to be in. He was fucking the shit out of me. Like, all.
Erica: Eating up masculinity.
Erin: Yeah, fine, I'll take all. I'll take all that testosterone mojo. But, yeah, I mean, men have a lock on anger, and women, God, we are really unappealing when we're angry. We are really unappealing. And we need to be appealing because our appeal is what keeps us safe. That's why we try so hard to be pretty. That's why we try so hard to be soft and sweet. It's part of our nature, but it's also part of what we're socialized to do.
Erica: Right. And we are socialized also to. If we do need to express some sort of dissatisfaction, it has to be under the perfect conditions. It has to be said the perfect way. It has to. The. The lighting has to be just right. There has to be, you know, a harp in the background, because otherwise we.
Erin: Get tone policed, or we remind our partners of their mothers, too, and that.
Erica: Freaks them the fuck out.
Erin: Well, they hate that.
Erica: Yeah, because they're--
Erin: They don't want to be scolded or told, but they want to put us in a position where we are mothering them.
Erica: Yeah.
Erin: I am feeling so fucking damned if you do, damned if you don't today. I know I'm, like, usually miss optimism, but, like, I. I just want to be honest about the fact that negotiating and navigating all of these relationships in our lives with the men who we are intimate with, both in business and in our romantic lives, it requires, like, a level of jiu jitsu that, like, I feel like my childhood really prepared me to be very accommodating to men, all of us. Uh huh.
Erica: We all--
Erin: Do you feel that same way?
Erica: Oh, absolutely. And the messages that we get from the culture. Look, I just had a woman come to the door yesterday. She's running for commissioner of the town I live in, and she gave. She gave me a flyer. I just want to share it with you. This is relevant, by the way, for a few reasons, because women are only important as we relate to the titles that men give us. So everyone introduces themselves as a wife, first of all, so I'm a mother. I'm a wife. I'm a proud mom and a wife. And when I was watching the conventions, it's like, if you want to be.
Erin: Wait, you watched both of the conventions?
Erica: Well, I watched one of them mostly, and the other one, I just wanted.
Erin: To throw rocks at the television, see.
Erica: The horror show, and then turn it off.
Erin: We'll let the listeners decide what we're talking about.
Erica: But even with the good one that we watched, why I. Women are conditioned to introduce ourselves as we relate to our jobs in the world as wife and mother. Like, we can't. We are only important as those two things, maybe teacher, but is that true? I think that no one would accept a candidate who was solo, had no children, had no husband. I mean, that is what we require of female candidates.
Erin: Is that at a certain scale or in every role, like, are you unelectable if you aren't married and don't have kids? Like, on every. Like, even for city council, maybe not.
Erica: At the lower or the lowest echelons, but definitely, as you move up the ladder in the world, it's. People think you're weird if you're unmarried. And. And then, you know, we have the childless cat lady Slur, which is so infuriating, and he's so infuriating. Like, he's like, oh, people misunderstood me. How do you misunderstand something like that?
Erin: No, I mean, it's funny if you think about what the male. What the parallel is to childless cat ladies. Like, I think a childless cat lady is doing. Let's say she's in her fifties. She never had kids, and she has her pets and her community and her friends and her activities and her career. What is the male parallel to that? Like, what is a 50 year old man? He probably has a dog. I'm scared of that black lab. Yeah, but I'm scared of that guy. Like, that guy's either he's a sociopath.
Erica: No. Yes.
Erin: Or he's so emotionally disconnected that because all of the new statistics say the incentive for men to get married is so much stronger than incentive for women to get married now that we have our own credit cards and birth control, which is something I think about all the time, like, what are we getting? And, like, for me, I'm in a phase in my life where I have four lovers. I juggle those dynamics in different ways. There is increasingly more emotional connection in those relationships as they go on. One of them, I feel like maybe I'm done with one, is just consistently sex and has been from the beginning. The other two, it's like complicated stuff going on in there, and it's taking more and more of my psychic energy, and it's making me think, okay, the sex is definitely worth it. The variety is definitely worth it. The agency is definitely worth it. But, like, I would really like to have one person who was looking out for me. But in the absence of that, say more about that.
Erica: Do you feel like that's what ultimately women get out of traditional marriage? It's just that comfort, that someone's looking out for them, that someone's got their back for me.
Erin: That's what I now realize I want. I now realize I want men in my life. And right now it's men and not man. Men in my life who are looking out for me, who care about what's going on with me, who check in with me, who want to give me as many orgasms as I want, who prioritize my pleasure, who think I'm fucking amazing, and who basically leave me alone to do whatever I want.
Erica: And you feel complete with that setup today?
Erin:I feel complete with that setup because I don't want the emotional responsibility for one person. I do not want to have to take care of someone. I really want to have men in my life who want to take care of me, and I don't want the emotional obligation because for me, that's where the labor is. And I'm so busy trying to figure my own shit out that, like, these looser ties are better for me because I know who I am in a relationship. I will take on all your shit.
Erica: Do you think you'll ever live with a man again?
Erin: I don't know. Part of me would like the domestic familiarity. I would like to sleep with someone every night. I really love that part of being in an intimate relationship. Um, I don't want to do your laundry, and I don't want to talk about that stuff. I don't want that shit to be a thing we have to discuss.
Erica: Yeah, I think that that's where everything goes wrong, is living.
Erin: I know.
Erica: I think that that's where shit just starts to go downhill. You know? It becomes very unsexy and expectations and resentments and.
Erin: Yeah, I don't want to have to worry about what you're eating for lunch. Like, it's hard enough for me to figure out my own food all the time. Like, and if I want to just drink a protein drink for breakfast, like, that is what I'm going to do. But I have to worry about two kids. Like, part of me feels like it's hard enough for me to feed them. It's not my favorite thing to do. I fill the refrigerator and I'm like, guys, I got the things you wanted from.
Erica: Oh, food is not fucking cooking.
Erin: Yeah, I'm not, I'm not. I'm not gonna do that. It's not something I've ever been willing to do. If I had a guy wanted to cook for me, fucking great. Like, terrific. You wanna own that piece of the puzzle? That sounds awesome. But no, I'm too, like, maybe when my kids move out, I'll feel differently. But I'm very independent, and I really cherish my own time.
And when a man is in my presence, my caretaking kicks in, my doting, my doting, my focus. I really like when I like someone, I'm fucking crazy about them. Like, I think about them and I want to do stuff for them, and I'm concerned about what's going on with them. And that's great. I think that's a great quality, but it can really take me over, and I can really see myself accommodating in ways that no one ever asked for.
Erica: Totally. I totally agree. I think we need guardrails to protect us from us, from ourselves.
Erin: From our socialization,
Erica: Because, well, one from our socialization. But I also think it's biological. I think there's a chemical component, a biological component to it. Our brains can outsmart our bodies, and we can put boundaries in place knowing that that's what is best for us ultimately, if we live because we've lived through it. We know ourselves, we know our tendencies, we know our inclinations. So if, you know, you're inclined to dote and to care take, then, you know, maybe cohabitation doesn't serve you well at this stage of your life because otherwise independent, free spirited Aaron, like, dies a little bit. I shrink, and we don't. I don't want to shrink.
I'm in a phase of my life where I want to fucking shine. I do not want to shrink. And that means I'm going to need to set up some major guardrails and boundaries in my life.
Erin: You know, it would be nice if I was with someone who had their own place, and we could sometimes be at their place, and we could sometimes be at my place, and we could sometimes be separate, but most of the time we spend the night together. But then we could go on do our trips or do our what? Like, I think if there's breathing room and everybody's, like, equally responsible for their shit and for communicating what their needs are and what their desires are and that we allow each other space and independence. I always felt like I was on a leash in my marriage. My husband always wanted to know where I was, who I was with. Like, if I went on a business trip and I didn't call him the minute I landed, I would get in trouble, really. And all I wanted was to fucking be on my own reconnaissance and be left alone to live my life. And he was like, well, I just want to know you're safe. I'm like, you get a call from the police if I'm not.
I really. I resisted. I resisted, and it became a point of contention because I don't think that he would have characterized himself as controlling. But when I look back, a lot of things that can be couched as love or caregiving or concern for someone else is control.
Erica: Totally, totally control.
Erin: Yeah. And I was working in environments which were very controlled, where I had to be inside a certain box and I had to say certain things, and I had to keep my mouth shut about other things. That's called a job. That's how that is. No matter what the job is, no matter how empowered you are, you're still a professional person who's being paid to behave a certain way. So I just always felt like, where can I go in my life where I feel free?
Erica: Ain't that the question?
Erin: Yeah. And I--you know, the freedom that I have claimed over the last couple of years has been great, but it has only been possible because I have money in the bank.
Erica: Yeah.
Erin: And for women who did not have money in the bank, what are the ways in which we can find our freedom? Does that mean living with girlfriends? Does that mean I keep thinking about living in a tiny house community? Does that mean something collective? Does that mean my friend's dad decided his retirement would be most robust if he moved to India? Well, so he's been living in India because it costs nothing. I'm like, okay, well, that's a choice.
Erica: Well, that's not a culture that I would thrive in personally. Just. No, the stoning and the burning are not clean. Yeah, there's that, too. Yes.
Erin: Yeah.
Erica: I do think that there has to be some sort of communal component to rebooting your life if you don't have access to capital and you need to change your living situation. Yeah. Whether it's a tiny house, whether it's getting roommates, whether it's just. There's got to be more options for women.
Erin: Well, it's so funny how, like, we would feel ashamed of that, too, right?
Erica: Yeah, there's a lot of shame.
Erin: Oh, I have a border. Oh, I have a. You know, my girlfriends and I just moved in together, like, because you're married.
Erica: And you have a roommate there. People make judgments about you.
Erin: Would you have a roommate? Yeah, I mean, I live for when my girlfriends come and stay with me. You know, I have my. My best friend. Last year, she came for. She's supposed to come for a week at a time. She stayed for three weeks each time.
Erica: So you. Would you. And would you have, like, a more permanent roommate, or are you only good with that type of a pop in.
Erin: Situation again, I don't know. Without kids. Right. Because managing their need for my attention.
Erica: Yeah.
Erin: And my focus is more important to me than anything, really, because I have such limited time left with them. I have five years.
Erica: Yes.
Erin: And so I really want to make the most of that. And they are the center of my life. I mean, I am the center of my life. Right. I am the center of my life. And my dreams and goals and ambitions are right up there with my kids. And I don't know that I'm supposed to say that. Right.
I feel like I'm supposed to say, oh, it's everything for the kids. Everything for the kids. And the fact is that, like, you know, mama's happy, everybody's happy.
Erica: Yeah. Yeah.
Erin: But we're not really allowed to say, like, yeah, my shit is so important to me. It's as important to me to do some things than it. As it is to go to back to school night. Like, yes. Yeah. That is how I feel this year. I'll prioritize. Back to school night. Last year, I didn't, you know. Mm hmm. I know. Bad mom, bad woman. Bad woman. Right.
Erica: Woman.
Erin: Right. Does dad go to back to school night? I don't know. I'm not talking him about it. He gets the fucking emails that I get. I bet he goes, if I tell him it's back to school night and tell him what time to show up.
Erica: Right. But you have to.
Erin: But I'm not doing that. I'm divorced.
Erica: Right.
Erin: You know, and he can tell me, oh, I'm a terrible co parent. No, actually, I'm terrible at being your mother.
Erica: Right. Your mother or your assistant. Mm hmm.
Erin: Right. I don't want to do it unless it benefits me. I'm not doing it.
Erica: Yep.
Erin: And, like, we're supposed to still do that caretaking, even in divorce.
Erica: Oh, God, yeah.
Erin: Yeah. Because I'm the one who's paying attention to the school schedule. I'm already thinking about spring break, you know, like.
Erica: Right. We're the planners. We forecast. Yeah. Wow.
Erin: Yeah.
Erica: Are you guys exhausted by our bitch session? Are you.
Erin: Is it a bitch session? No. Or are you going? I feel that because my hope is that, and my suspicion is the people who listen to this podcast need this conversation. I just know how secretly I have this conversation in my own mind. I just know how quiet I am about it in the rest of the world. And, yeah, I'm doing, like, sex and romance differently than other people, probably, definitely. But for me, splitting up my focus between a bunch of different guys keeps me from being in this mode with one guy, and. And I need a lot of attention and a lot of sex. And so that's how it's working for me.
But, like, as things get more emotional and these dynamics get longer term, I can see some of this patterning come up, and I have to watch myself because I could end up with a bunch of guys who. Whose emotional needs I really care about. Like, well, that's not what this was for. This was for me getting my needs met.
Erica: Right. Because you. And would you say that in this dynamic, you don't feel small, you don't feel. No, right?
Erin: No. I feel like a fucking goddess. Yeah, I feel like a goddess. I am worshiped like, I am. You know, my pleasure is prioritized, and I get, like, sweet check ins all the time.
Erica: That's nice.
Erin: And, like, how are you doing? And if I'm upset, like, they want to talk, like, you know, it's really nice, and then I don't have to be responsible for them and their complicated shit, and I can set boundaries around that, and I have. And I've said I'm cool with hearing about this. That's kind of beyond the scope of what we're doing together.
Erica: Good for you.
Erin: Well, it's hard and it's painful, but this is what I'm trying to do in these new forms of relationship. I am trying to work on my own skills, the skills that I did not have as a married person, and that I think it's really hard to practice in a marriage when everything feels.
Erica: So high stakes and it feels like everything's against you. Like, you can't win.
Erin: Yeah. I think if I were to ever be in a monogamous or I think probably monogamish relationship in the future, like, I'd like to be able to sleep with other guys. I don't want them to sleep with other women, but I. I want to be able to sleep.
Erica: Oh, that's totally fair.
Erin: Yeah. I mean, whatever. It's all. It's fair is what you say it is.
Erica: Yeah, of course.
Erin: You know, I think that would probably be fine with some guys.
Erica: I think so.
Erin: If you trust the Internet, it is fine with some guys. So I am willing to do that caretaking. But I was boundary less because I felt that every time I tried to assert a boundary, it hurt so much, and I had to be so vigilant, and I failed every time because I was with someone who was determined to not respect my boundaries, not because he didn't love me, but because his own psychological makeup trumped everything.
Erica: And punished you for your--
Erin: And punished me constantly. Yeah. Yeah. My independence, my. I need alone time. Like, I need hermit time. I really do. It's just, I was my mother's only child. I grew up alone in my room a lot of the time, and that is a safe and happy place for me. I need that. And my ex really could not give that to me, could not grant that, and resented that so much because it felt like it was taking from him. Of course I chose that person. Right. That replicates my childhood being trampled, my boundaries being trampled, me not being respected, my needs not being important. But what I'm working on is, like, how do I stay in relationship to Mendez and have boundaries? And the men who can't respect those boundaries, they're gone from my life.
Erica: Well, would you say that the men in your life need to have the same level of, I don't know, attunement, emotional intelligence as you like, that they.
Erin: Would that be possible? No. No, I don't think that's possible.
Erica: I want to know if there are men out there who are emotionally intelligent enough to have mature, healthy, adult relationships that don't look like traditional marriage.
Erin: I wonder if it's possible for our generation of men.
Erica: I don't know.
Erin: I think it might be possible for millennial men or Gen Z men, because they're being socialized differently. But we were socialized by the baby boomers who raised us.
Erica: Yeah.
Erin: And, you know, they were just starting to push the boundaries of traditional.
Erica: Right.
Erin: Like, the best that our mothers, I think, largely could do. Washington to get divorced. Like, that was the best that they could do, and that they had careers. And I didn't see any models of. Oh, maybe a couple, but I wasn't inside the relationships, but I didn't see any models of my mom's peers or my mom inside of relationships that looked like something I would want.
Erica: No, no, not at all. They all looked the same. They all looked exactly the same.
Erin: Yeah. My thing, too, is what's challenging is I don't really like a beta male. Like, all the guys I like are pretty alpha. Are pretty. Like, I like a. It's like, I like a guy who's a little bit tough.
Erica: Right. Is there? And if you're an alpha male, can you be sensitive and emotionally intelligent?
Erin: I think so, but it may not look how we would prescribe it to look. I mean, I had this phone date. I met a guy on the Internet, and we kind of hit it off, and I was like, well, let's talk on the phone. Cause that's what I always say. And if they don't want to talk on the phone, on telegram, not on a regular phone, don't give away your phone number. Just giving dating safety tips. Go somewhere where your phone number is blocked, but where you can have a phone conversation. And this guy was talking a lot about.
He was really nice, and he was talking about how ayahuasca and psilocybin and all these things had really changed his life and helped him evolve and about his healing journey and my pussy dried up. Like, I do not want to hear the extensive talk about your healing journey and the candles and rituals and tribal what I mean, like, I. So it's a conundrum for me. And I think for a lot of women, like, who you're hot for and who you could be good friends with. I feel like I can be hot for someone and be good friends with someone, but not be in a committed, emotional relationship with them. That's what I'm doing.
Erica: Well, it sounds like because I can't.
Erin: Figure out that piece. I can't figure out that piece with the kinds of guys that I'm attracted to.
Erica: It's hard. I think what I'm hearing you say is that you need them to monitor what comes out of their mouth when it comes to sharing details of their pain and healing experiences.
Erin: Not even. Not even. It's not so black and white. I'm psyched to hear that someone's in therapy. I'm psyched to hear that someone's made a lot of progress, that they want to do things differently, that they've had a revelation about themselves, that they've learned how they were and how they want to be. I like all of that stuff. I'm just not going to go for the guy with the beads and the men's retreats. That's not gonna work for me.
Erica: Well, what if your alpha guy, who is in therapy, came to you one day and was like, I just had a breakthrough in therapy, and I realized that my mother. And then they broke down. Would.
Erin: I don't mind. No, no. Because I would hold their big, strong, muscular back, and I'll be like, you know, I appreciate when someone is. If I really love someone, I'm not scared of that.
Erica: Yeah, that can't be date number three.
Erin: But that can't be date number three. You can't lead with that shit.
Erica: No.
Erin: Otherwise you will never get together.
Erica: Yeah.
Erin: That's not sexual, and it can't be the dominant thing in your life. It can't be for my female friends either. You know, like, I like optimism. I like positivity. I don't want to be Debbie downer down in the dumps with everybody. Like, you know, I want us to, like, cheer each other on and encourage each other and. And share joy and, you know, be conspiratorial and. And scheme together about all the awesome things we're going to do and do those things together. Collaborate on those things together, be partners in those things. Like you and I are, Erika. Like.
Erica: But not in, like, a toxic positivity way. Not in, like, a. Oh, we don't ever share anything bad going on in our lives.
Erin: No, I've had those professional relationships, for sure. In the workplace, I've had those. And they serve their purpose, which keeps things in a box, because it probably needs to be, because you got to make that next zoom call. How do we sum this conversation up? I mean, I think it's complicated to be us. I think it's complicated to be an ambitious, independent minded woman against the backdrop of the expectations that the culture has for us. I think it's not surprising that 73% of divorces are initiated by women that we learned from Paulette Rigo and that we're more willing to take on parenting and our professional lives and all that stuff alone these days. Then we are wanting to carry a load that isn't ours to carry.
Erica: Well said. Yes. And if I can add to that, that.
Erin: Just kidding.
Erica: Did you say no?
Erin: Yeah. Yeah.
Erica: Fuck you. That we are trying to push against a paradigm that we were raised in, and we're trying to do things differently. We know what's not working for us, but we don't know how to do it.
Erin: We're looking for models. We're looking for examples. We want to see how you're doing it. I want to hear from the hotter than ever audience about how they've solved pieces of this puzzle.
Erica: Me too.
Erin: Me too.
Erica: I want to hear about people who. I want to hear about middle aged women cohabitating. I want to hear if you do have a roommate I'm curious about, because it seems like women are, like, it would be so much easier if we just live together. But can that work?
Erin: I've always said, fantasize about being a lesbian for that reason.
Erica: Yeah.
Erin: Because it's like, well, we'll just. But then I. You know, that's not how I'm wired, right? Um, maybe. Yeah. So maybe roommates.
Erica: Yeah. Or, you know. Yeah. Whatever you're doing that feels different to you, that feels like a change from what you were doing before, we would love to know about it.
Erin: Yeah, please tell us, because we're here seeking, just like you are. You know, we're here looking for models and examples and fresh ways of thinking about things. And also, we're not fixed.
Erica: No, we're not fixed.
Erin: And I think that's part of, like, the relationships that I really admire and the lives that I really admire are relationships and lives where evolution is seen as a foregone expectation, right. That you are going to change that. As we head through these phases of our lives, you are going to change and evolve. And if you are in a partnership or a marriage where you give each other the space to grow and change and evolve and get to know the new version of your partner, whether that's your romantic partner, your business partner, whatever it is. Like, I was recently in a situation where I had an opportunity professionally, but when I started to change, they wanted me to be the same. And I'm not going to calcify myself or how my ambitions evolve to fit someone else's conception of what is commercial or what is marketable or what is acceptable or what they want. It's my life and it's your life. And we get a bad rap for changing our minds, women. But maybe we just take that as our prerogative. You can change. You must change.
Erica: You must change.
Erin: Our bodies are changing. Our circumstances are changing. Our culture is changing. Let's all just work on being okay with our own evolution.
Erica: Yes. And I would even say change faster, let it go quicker. Get out of there sooner. Don't let it linger. Oh, that's like the cranberry song.
Erin: Do you have to?
Erica: Do you have to let it linger? Do you have to?
Erin: Do you have to?
Erica: Do you have to?
Erin: I did. I had to for 17 years.
Erica: I mean, that it's, I think we stay in a way of being too long sometimes and we know that it's not right for us. But like you always say, Erin, how much time do we think we have left?
Erin: That's right.
Erica: And, you know, get out of there. If it's not working and you're pretty darn sure it's not going to change, get out of there.
Erin: Are you giving yourself advice right now, Erica?
Erica: I might be. Or I might be sharing the things that I've told myself in the very recent past and sharing them with you.
Erin: I appreciate it. All right. This is an amazing conversation. I want to hear from the audience.
Erica: How can they reach us, Erin?
Erin: Oh, we have a substack hotterthanever.com. we're on instagram at hotter than ever pod. We're everywhere, really. At hotter than ever pod. And we want to hear from you. All right, Erica, I love you.
Erica: I love you.
Erin: Talk to you soon.
Erica: Bye.
Erin: Thanks for listening to Hotter Than Ever. If you loved this conversation, if you liked this conversation, if you hated this conversation because you could relate to this conversation, oh, please share it with your friends. Open up this dialogue with them. Don't be alone with the thoughts in your head when there is an amazing community of women out there at the substack for Hotter Than Ever, which you can find at hotterthanever.substack.com on our instagram at hotterthaneverpod. I hope this conversation made you feel connected to the wider world and that your experience doesn't exist in a vacuum and that it was somehow cathartic for you as it was for Erica and I just to get it all out.
Hotter than ever is produced by Erica Gerard and podcast Productions. Our associate producer is Melody Carey. Music is by Chris Keating, with vocals by Issa Fernandez. I will see you next week, beautiful friends again. I will not see you you next week, but I will speak to you next week. I will return to your eardrums next week. I hope it's a good one.
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