Getting Unstuck with Deanna deBara

Erin: Welcome to Hotter Than Ever, where we uncover the unconscious rules we've been following. We break those rules and we find a new path to being freer, happier, sexier, and more satisfied in the second half of our lives. I'm your host, Erin Keating.

I hope that you are all doing well, really well as we head into the madness that is the holiday season. Welcome to new listeners, however, you found us. I am so grateful that you are here and to the core group of loyal listeners who tune in week after week, I am deeply grateful for you too.

I've been having a lot of fun discovering amazing women to talk to on this podcast, and we're really going to round out the year with some incredible conversations. I hope you've been enjoying all the topics that we've been exploring and that these conversations have meant something to you.

I just want to remind you that you, dear listener, are part of the most extraordinary, accomplished, successful, inspiring generation of women who have ever lived. On planet earth and the life of the people around you would not be nearly as rich without your thousands of daily contributions. I know it. I see you.

You work hard. You care hard. You do so much. It is women over 40 who keep the plates of the world spinning. I swear if we stopped working, it would be like that play Lysistrata, it's a classic Greek play where the women of Greece want to stop war and so they decide to stop having in the hopes that that will cause peace to come about.

I wonder if we all decided to stop laboring so goddamn hard if we could enact the kind of change that those women of antiquity, fictional women of antiquity, were trying to enact. If no one has told you this recently, I want you to hear from me. That your work matters, your love matters, the care you put into everything you do, the details that you attend to for your life and the lives of the people around you, all of that matters without us, without women over 40.

The world would be a much colder and probably a lot messier place. So thank you. Thank you for everything you do to make those plates spin. Today I'm giving all of us permission to take a look at the places in our rich and complicated lives where we feel stuck, where we want things to shift that are not shifting, where we feel uncomfortably locked into place.

Today, I interviewed Deanna deBara. She is a writer whose work has appeared in Glamour, Cosmo, Men's Health, and many more publications. She's also a content marketer with almost a decade of experience working with brands. After feeling stuck in her professional life, Deanna launched the podcast "Season of Stuck", which is a show about the all too human experience of feeling stuck.

She talks about how and why we get stuck, what stuckness feels like, how to learn and grow from it, and ultimately how to get unstuck and step into the next version of ourselves and our lives. So that is what we are here to talk about today.

All right, let's get hot.

Deanna deBara, welcome to Hotter Than Ever.

Deanna: Erin, thank you so much for having me.

Erin: My pleasure. So I think that you are right on time with this conversation about stuckness, because there are a lot of women in midlife out there who are feeling stuck. Maybe they have done the same thing the same way for a long time, and it is not working for them anymore in their career, in their relationships, in the roles they play in their lives. I would love to hear about the ways in which you've been stuck, because obviously your own inquiry into this has led to this podcast. I'd love to hear your personal story.

Deanna: You could not be any more correct, I feel, as I've done this work. Stuckness is definitely a universal human experience, but it is definitely experience that many of us women around midlife start to have in that questioning of the paths that we've taken, the roles that we fall, like, fallen into. And is this how we want to move through the second half of our life? So it really makes sense that stuckness comes amongst this questioning that we tend to do at middle. In the middle of our lives. Yes. In the middle Ages. I am, like, new to middle. I'm turning 40 in about a week and a half.

Erin: Congratulations.

Deanna: Thank you.

Erin: Life starts now.

Deanna: I'm telling you, I have never felt better. I've never felt more grounded. I've never felt happier. I've never felt, let's be real, hotter in the. In the scope of this podcast.

Erin: Yep.

Deanna: So it's great. I'm very excited about it. But to answer your question, I am a person that has felt stuck a lot. Like, a lot, a lot over the years. I have been stuck in many different areas in many different ways at many different times. And while each season of stuck looked different, there was a universal thread in that. When I experienced stuckness, it always felt like a personal failing. Like I, Deanna, was somehow falling short or not enough or not doing it right.

Erin: Why couldn't you figure that out right?

Deanna: 100%. And because I couldn't figure it out. That's why I kept hitting these walls of stuckness. And it was a very lonely and isolating experience. And it wasn't until my most recent period of major stuckness, which was about a year ago, my industry was really changing. I was feeling really stuck in my business, and that stuckness was bleeding into my life. I didn't know how to move forward. I didn't know what I wanted to move forward to.

And so I stayed in that inertia for. For months and months and Finally, I got so sick of feeling stuck that I was inspired to take action. And I did two things. Number one is I started doing research on stuckness. And number two is I started talking about my experiences of feeling stuck. And from those two things, it became very clear that stuckness was what was not a me thing. It was a human thing. Every single person that I spoke to had their own experiences with feeling stuck.

Whether stuck in their career, stuck in their relationship, stuck in their personal growth journey, stuck in the aging process. Like, there's so many different ways that we can experience stuckness, and it looks different for everyone. But through my research and conversation, it became clear that it was something that we all go through at one point or another, or if you're like me at many, many points. And it was in that that I was like, huh? This could be a really interesting thing to explore in a podcast. And that is what led to me creating Season of Stuck.

Erin: I love it. I love it. I think we all experience it, and we maybe experience it I can only speak to, because I only have only lived in my own body and my own life. Experience, Experience. And I will often use myself as focus group of one on this podcast. But, you know, it occurs for me when I feel stuck. It occurs as like. Like an artery has been blocked, like something is clogging up the works.

Because I am. I have a bias towards action. And when the path is clear, I will move, I will take action. I will go, go, go and drive at a thing until I've made something, which is usually my impulse as a creative person is like the end game for me is always, what can I make? And I think you probably can relate to that as a writer, you know, but for me, there's always something that's like, what is that blockage? And how do I identify it? Dissolve it, unpack it? These are mixed metaphors. Is it a liquid? Is it a solid? We don't know. It feels like a clog in a drain. And for me, it's always something emotional. There is always some emotional thing.

And when we were talking in advance of this conversation, you said it's often storytelling that gets in our way. And I would love to understand that a little bit more. Are you saying it's a story you're telling yourself that is causing that blockage?

Deanna: That is a great question. So much of the experience of stuckness circles back to stories and then not. That is not to say that there isn't an actual block or there isn't an actual obstacle or there isn't a real sense of inertia that you're dealing with. Right.

Erin: But stories are real, and they have power.

Deanna: And it's the stories that you tell yourself about that clog, about that block, about that obstacle, that really kind of like, bury you in the stuckness. So, for example, the stories that I was telling myself, this is a me thing. Why can't I get it together? I'm so stupid. I'm not competent. Like, all of these internal stories were not helping me move forward. Because here's the thing, and this is true in all of the research and all of the conversations, and I'm sure in your personal experience and absolutely in mine, you cannot shame yourself into change. You cannot shame your way out of stuckness. Beating yourself up, telling yourself that you're bad or you're not good enough or this is your fault.

All that is going to do is get you more stuck. So, yes, I think that when you are facing a season of stuck, whether you're feeling blocked, whether you're feeling like the path forward isn't clear, whether you're feeling like you don't know what the next version of yourself and your life is going to look like, one of the places to start is to really examine the way that you're speaking to yourself and the stories that you're telling yourself, not only about the stuckness, but about your life in general, and then really unwinding those stories to be more supportive, more compassionate, more empathetic, and more motivating.

Erin: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm thinking back to when I was married, and I felt stuck in the bargain that I had struck in the marriage. Right. I was married, I had twins, and I felt like my story was, I can't be a single parent. My story was, I made this decision. I chose this person, and this is how it's going to be, and this is how it's going to go. And then I realized I was telling myself a story about how I needed to prove to my parents that I could do marriage, commitment, relationship better than they did.

And that was one of the things that shook Shook loose for me, where I was like, why do I care about this? Like, there's. I'm not getting a trophy for being married for 17 years when they were married for 10. What do I think I'm winning here? No one's gonna give me, like, a relationship superiority award.

Deanna: Wouldn't that be nice if we just got all of these awards?

Erin: I mean, I have awards. They don't fucking mean anything. They're nice to look at. And you can tell people you have them, and they go, oh, she maybe. Maybe she's legitimate. Maybe she is who she says she is, but no, awards are nothing. And, yeah, so that once I started to unpack, that was one little piece of, you know, what was clogging things up for me and keeping me from being able to actually make the change I knew I needed to make.

Deanna: Well, and you brought up a really important point, which is that it's. There's generally a story behind the story. Right. So your original story was that I can't be a single parent. I have to stay in this marriage. But when you started untangling that story, there was a story beneath it about having to prove something to your parents. And that was really where the stuckness came from. So this self inquiry, this, like, really digging deep, and I know it's like a cliche thing to say, but peeling back the layers of the onion and getting to the root, like, that's where the unstuckness comes from.

It's a deeper way of knowing yourself, a deeper way of understanding why you're at the place you're at, how you got there, where you want to go. And it really starts, I think, with those stories.

Erin: Yeah, we are so full of stories about who we are and who we can be and who we're supposed to be and who we don't want to be and what the consequences will be of a decision that you make that is scary and that I think we're mostly scared of stepping out of line. I think we're mostly scared of being alone in our decisions and being out on a limb. I often feel out on a limb and, like, I'm making decisions about how I'm doing my life and my sort of creative and professional reinvention that I don't think people understand. People in my life don't understand it. And, you know, I think you can allow yourself to let that stop you.

Deanna: Well, and on top of it, as women, we don't just have our own stories, Right. We have the stories that we have been fed for our entire lives about who we're supposed to be, how we're supposed to show up, what we're supposed to look like, what we're supposed to do, what we're not supposed to do. And over time, many of us, certainly myself, internalize those stories until they become ours. And we're carrying around all of these expectations about who we should be and what we should do and what we shouldn't do. And that can get us stuck in a life that doesn't actually reflect who we are. We're living a life by someone else's design. And in my experience, that is the definition of feeling stuck. When you are in a life and you look around and you say, whose life is this? Like, how did I get here?

Erin: It always comes back to the talking heads. It's always that this is not my beautiful house, this is not my beautiful wife. Like, even though there's an implicit male viewpoint in that song, I do, I do think so many of us in midlife and. And part of this is as a result of circumstance and phases of life changing. If you had kids and then you raise those kids and that period is done, they're cooked. Or you identify deeply with a certain career and then that career can expire on you and you realize, like, this was great for that time, but it isn't great for now.

Deanna: That's literally the experience that I am in at this moment. And it can be really tough. I think that stuckness often comes in periods of transition. So to your point, I'm a writer, that that industry, particularly in terms of journalism and content marketing, is not only changing, but disappearing. I would argue ending the writing as we used to know it in the industry is no longer viable. But what comes next hasn't really emerged yet.

Erin: You can write AI prompts, can't you?

Deanna: Like, exactly. It's like this dystopian future that I hope something comes up where we're valuing like the words of real people, but it's this in between place where it's really hard. And you know, this is what led to my serious stuckness that I experienced last year was this realization that my career and in many ways my identity, because for good, for better or for worse, I tied a lot of my identity into being a business owner, being a writer, so on and so forth. Yeah, like that business, that craft, that life as it was, no longer exists. But I don't know what comes next. And so I'm still kind of spinning my wheels, you know, with one foot in my old life and one foot trying to find my new life. And that can make you feel very stuck and like frozen. Like, where do you go?

Erin: You know, I mean, I think that's the metaphor of midlife, where all the things you used to do and the reasons you used to do them get called into question. Because there is this shift that happens and I am a big believer that. I mean, it's not even a belief, it's just a fact. Your estrogen starts to drop in your 40s, and with it, your desire to accommodate others drops because. Because you no longer need to raise offspring that will be supported by the tribe, so you don't have to keep the tribal elders happy so that they'll watch your kid when you go to pick berries in the bushes. Like, we're all fucking cave people. And then our lifespan is so much longer than any other generation. So if we're lucky.

I'm 53. My mom is 81. She is doing great, totally healthy. She can't hear shit. But other than that, there's lots of advances in hearing aid technology, but I'm looking at, you know, 30, 40 more years. What does that look like? We are humans in an unprecedented moment in human history, and we are women in an unprecedented moment in women's history where we are used to actually getting it done. You know, we have more women lawyers, more women doctors, more women educators. We are leading the culture, and we are changing so fast, and we are all saying, how do I get from here to the next thing? How do I identify what that is? What's going to sustain.

Sustain me? So it's not just me feeling stuck. It's also me not knowing how to manage all these shifts in my biology and in the culture and in the economy and the job market and all of those things.

Deanna: Yeah. We as humans, as women, have a whole second life that generations before did not have. And if we're talking about it from, like an evolutionary standpoint, like, we are wired for stuckness in today's day and age, because the speed at which society has evolved, all of the information that we are constantly taking in. Right. Our brains have not evolved to keep up with it. You know, you think about how much information people had available in, let's say, the 1950s versus how much information that we're dealing with every single day, every minute of every day.

Erin: You're not wired for it.

Deanna: No. And so we're in this constant nervous system dysregulation, you know, whether fight or flight or freeze, both of which contribute to that feeling of stuckness, of I cannot move forward. I know that I don't want to be here. I know that here is not the right place for me. But, like, physically, physiologically, my body just will not allow me to do that.

Erin: It's so intense. It's so intense. And, I mean, I think we're probably experiencing it more than any other generation before us because of all of this change, because of the way technology has disrupted everything, and yet we're still just like human people in human bodies with human nervous systems trying to make smart decisions about how to set ourselves up for happiness and well being for the next 30, 40 years. And it's hard not to feel paralyzed by the not knowing.

Deanna: And when you layer that idea of having 30, 40 years ahead of us and not being super clear about what that's going to look like with this kind of overwhelm of information and feeling frozen and things going so fast and stress, it makes sense that at midlife, women are questioning and women are feeling stuck. I think that midlife is also around the point. We've talked about this before, but as women, we have been sold the fallacy of having it all.

Erin: Yeah.

Deanna: The idea that not only can we have perfect career and the perfect home and the perfect relationship and the perfect children and the perfect bank account and, you know, perfect insert thing here, everything but that we have to. That we should. And so we spend the first half of our lives trying to live up to this ideal of having it all. And I feel like I'll speak from my experience. It was right around as I approached 40 that it all started to fall apart. And I realized, like, this game is rigged. There is no way to have it all. Like, if I have it all in one area, it's at the expense of another.

And trying to live up to this societal ideal of having it all is running me into the ground and making me feel stuck and paralyzed and sad and so many different things. Right? So I think around midlife is also when we're starting to question. We've spent the past 40 years trying to achieve this ideal and eventually realizing that it doesn't exist. So then it's like, okay, well, what do I want? Where do I want to have it all? What do I want to do? And those are big questions.

Erin: They're really big questions. And I think they apply to, like, literally every corner of our lives. And I think for a lot of women listening to this podcast, you know, one of the first things that they look at is their domestic lives and their primary relationships, their marriages. And they say something here has to change. And then there are people who are looking at their careers and looking at overwork and stress and burnout, and they're saying, something here has to change. Or I'm constantly chasing status, money, social acceptability, materialism, material goods that represent, you know, that I've, like, made it. And asking themselves, was that, is that worth the cost at this point in my life? Um, and I think for everyone, I. I would find it Very hard to believe that there's someone listening to this podcast who's like, I'm not stuck in any area of my life.

Erin: You know?

Deanna: Yes, I. It's pretty universal. And you're bringing up what I believe to be the positive side of stuckness. Right? Because let's be honest, stuck is not a fun experience. It's not a particularly comfortable experience. It's not a place that we want to be.

Erin: No. It's a place we're dying to get out of.

Deanna: I mean, exactly.

Erin: Stuck implies, like, you better fix this jam. You're. You know, something is. Something is not working. Right.

Deanna: But stuck is a step. Stuckness. In my experience and in everyone that I've told you and in the, you know, books that I've read, a period of stuckness always precedes a period of serious growth. So it's the stuckness that ultimately makes you so uncomfortable that you are able to embrace the idea of change, right? Because change is scary, right? Like the unknown, not knowing what comes next, that can feel overwhelming. But when you're stuck, it generally gets to a point where you're so uncomfortable that you'd rather deal with the discomfort of change than the discomfort of staying the same. And so stuck is uncomfortable, but it is like a. An opportunity to really figure out what you want from your life, from your relationship, from your career, and to step into that next version of yourself, of your life, of your career, of your relationship. You know, like, you were talking about these questions saying, like, something here needs to change, right? When you ask yourself those questions, it's a great opportunity to identify your values, right? Like, what actually is important to me, right? What do I actually want to have in my life, in my career, in my relationships? And oftentimes, as we just spoke about, we don't really think about that as we're, like, building our lives.

Deanna: We're just kind of moving towards the next thing. And stuck is a great opportunity to pause and say, okay, this is not where I want to be, but where do I want to go? And what are the values that I need to embrace in order to get there?

Erin: Yeah, I think that's right, Deanna. And, like, there's a 12 step saying, we grow at the speed of pain. Like, if it hurts enough, we'll be willing to change. But people don't end up in the 12 step rooms until they're in enough pain that they need to find a solution. They need to start taking steps and actions on their own behalf because it hurts too much. Whatever it is that landed you there for me, it's been food and compulsive overeating. Yeah, I'm grateful for this. I'm feeling really stuck in some places in my life right now, and it hurts and it's uncomfortable and I feel like I want to push out of it.

But I know that how it works for me, how change works for me, is I have to get uncomfortable and then I. Then I have to unpack a story or uncover what is it that I. Where is this resistance? And recently I'll just share with you that I think I have been holding on to the notion that I need to be professionally respectable. Like, I need to be still acceptable to the community of contacts on my LinkedIn page who I have gathered over the last 20 years in my career as a TV executive. And why do I feel that way? It feels like that's the safety net. Like, I could go back to that if this adventure in, like, me being self expressed, me being the talent, me being an artist doesn't fucking work out. Like, I better hold on to that. And what it's keeping me from doing is just saying it.

Erin, say everything you think you know, be as audacious as you can think of being. Do all the things you need to do in order to be successful in this next version of yourself. But I do feel like there's a part of me that is like, I'm scared to let go of the only thing that's ever made me money, which.

Deanna: It makes total sense that you would be scared. Our brains are wired for survival, right? Not for, like, growth and living our best lives. And there's. Right.

Erin: It's really when we evolve to that version, I hope soon.

Deanna: It's very helpful if we're like, face to face with a mountain lion. Not so much when we're, like, thinking about making a career change and our brain starts going haywire, like we're facing a mountain lion.

Erin: Right.

Deanna: But there is a innate vulnerability, right? In change, in putting yourself out there, in doing something new. And that feels vulnerable. It feels scary. So the fact that you're dealing with feelings of fear makes total sense. I have absolutely had those same feelings as I am transitioning into a new medium, making a podcast, talking about my personal stories, like my story with addiction, my story with, you know, my different failures and so on and so forth. But there's an authenticity to it as well, right? Like what you're talking about, about being like, I am scared, but I want to put everything on the line and step out and be completely 100% Erin.

Erin: Yeah.

Deanna: Like, there is huge value in living your life that way. Because when you're embracing authenticity to, like, tie it to stuckness, when you are living your life in a way that is truly aligned with your values, your purpose, your wants, your needs, your desires, you are far less likely to find yourself stuck in stories that aren't serving you, or in jobs that aren't serving you or relationships that aren't serving you. And if you find yourself in one of those, you are much better equipped to identify what's going on and move towards a more authentic expression of whatever that is.

Erin: Okay, I'll take your word for it. Yeah. Yeah. And also, like, we are remarkably resourceful as women because we are solving problems in all areas of life at all times with our intellect and with our emotional intelligence and with our experience. And we will get through this, and we will get through it in community and conversation with each other. I don't think we will get through this in a stoic, kind of pulling up your bootstraps, every woman for themselves kind of way. I just don't. I don't think that's how we are all going to figure out how to have permission and then also the techniques to get unstuck and to reinvent ourselves in the way we need to for this next section of our lives.

Deanna: We need each other. Yeah, we need each other. There's no way around that. To your point, as women, we do have everything that we need. We're so good at taking care of everything, taking care of responsibilities, taking care of other people, and we deserve to be able to turn that competence into taking care of ourselves.

Erin: So what are some techniques that you've uncovered for getting unstuck? Because I think people who are listening are going, okay, great, yeah, we get it. We're stuck. We know what it feels like. How do we begin to unwind that feeling of, I can't get out of this?

Deanna: Yeah, absolutely. So there are so many different techniques that you could use. I'm going to share a few of my favorite. So, number one is if you are feeling stuck in the nervous system sense. Right. If your system is overwhelmed, you're feeling a complete lack of motivation, you're tired all the time. That's your body being stuck. And you can't think your way out of that kind of stuckness.

Right. If your body is in a freeze state, you have to do something to get your body and nervous system out of that free state. There's lots of different ways to do it. Movement is huge. I take dance classes you can do yoga, you can go on a walk. Anything that gets your body and energy moving can help to shift your nervous system out of a free state. I also really like things that are a little bit more extreme. My go to when I am in a body state of stuckness is cold plunging.

Erin: Oh, fuck. I knew you were gonna say cold.

Deanna: I know.

Erin: I hate a cold plunge. It's too cold.

Deanna: I am one of those, like, annoying people who just wants to tell everybody about the benefits of cold plunging. And here's the thing, it is not for everyone, right? It is a very intense experience. It's an experience that you need to do with supervision and the permission of your doctor. For me, the feel good neurotransmitters that I get as a result of a cold plunge, like, completely shakes me out of a stuck place and makes me feel motivated and joyful and like all of those emotions that I have a hard time accessing when I'm in a stuck place. And it played a huge role in getting myself unstuck this pastime. And it's still a part of my life today. But how?

Erin: Wait, what's your protocol for cold plunging?

Deanna: So I follow. It's like a cold, hot, cold protocol. So I go to a wellness center and I do anywhere. At my highest, I could do 12 minutes. I am not there right now in the cold water. I really built it up. But the doctor who runs the wellness center, he says that the goal is to stay in for longer than three minutes. Because at three minutes, as you experience when you first get into the water, it's a huge shock to your body and your brain and your body are screaming at you to like, get out, get out.

But if you can make it past the three minute mark, your body, according to the doctor, and there isn't a ton of research on cold plunging, I should say, so a lot of it is anecdotal. But after three minutes, your nervous system starts to shift. So it goes from sympathetic to parasympathetic and it starts releasing all of these feel good neurotransmitters like serotonin, like dopamine, and you almost feel euphoric. So that stay in for longer than three minutes. And then I get into a sauna for like 12 minutes and then I get back in and just do like a quick dunk. I go underwater and then I am ready for my day. It's a lot. I get it.

Erin: I mean, I really admire this. And my best friend is a therapist and also is a like, kind of extreme sports person. Like she's not a triathlete, but she'll, like, really hike in a way that I'm like, no, thank you. But she's always like, yes, cold plunge. And I'm like, I don't want to. I'm such a wuss, but I don't want to do it.

Deanna: But if you don't want to do it, that's totally fine. It's not for everyone. But there are ways that you can get kind of that similar jolt without completely submerging yourself in the water. Fill up a large bowl with ice water and then dunk your face for a few seconds. Like, put your whole face in the water and then come out. And if you need to do it a few times to get that, like, awake and alive and focused and sharp. Yeah. It, like, literally shocks your system out of the stuckness. So that could be a good way.

Erin: Okay, I can do that.

Deanna: Yes, I can do that. It's a good, like, baby step towards doing a full cold plunge. Or just a great place to kind of stay where you are. Okay.

Erin: I admire you.

Deanna: Thank you.

Erin: I can dip my face in a bowl. A bowl of ice water. I think a lot of other people could do that, too. I think probably other people can do cold plunges, too. And, you know, start baby steps at.

Deanna: The beginning when you're stuck making big changes is really hard.

Erin: Yeah.

Deanna: Right. So if I'm feeling stuck finding the motivation to drive to the wellness center and, like, get on my bathing suit and get in the plunge, like, it's really difficult. And so that brings me to the next technique. So I had a guest on my podcast. Her name is Brit Frank. She's the author of a book called the Science of Stuck, which I cannot recommend anymore. She really breaks down what is happening in the brain and the body when we're experiencing stuckness and gives you actionable strategies for, like, how to work with your brain and body to get unstuck.

Erin: Good.

Deanna: But she mentioned this strategy that has, like, completely changed the way that I think about things, and it's called micro yeses. So micro yeses, as the name implies, are, like, think of the smallest possible thing you could say yes to without feeling overwhelmed and do it in that moment. So to our point that we're just talking about with cold plunging, if you're stuck, going to do a cold plunge might feel overwhelming.

Erin: Yeah.

Deanna: But maybe you can say yes to the face in the bowl. Or maybe if you're feeling, like, stuck in bed and you don't even want to get up if that feels like too much. Then maybe the micro yes is rolling over to your other side. Right? Just what is the smallest thing I can say yes to that will not overwhelm my system? And what that does is that it. It shows your brain that you're changing. And it's also showing your brain that that change is safe so it's not going to trigger that freeze response. Right? Because it's so small that your brain's like, oh, okay, we did that. That's fine.

Now when we do the next thing, oh, okay, that was fine, too. And over time, those micro yeses compound, and then motivation kicks in, and then you're able to take these larger strides and take these larger steps and move towards larger change. But it. I think that we often get caught up in the idea that change has to be big in order for it to be, like, valid or worthwhile. But making small changes is what adds up to large changes. And you do it in a sustainable way and celebrate those wins, celebrate those yeses. Right? Like, if you're feeling stuck and you're able to go to the refrigerator and fill up a bowl with ice and water and put your head in it, like, that is a reason for celebration. Like, toast yourself.

Right? And toast yourself for every step along the way. Right? It's all just, like, showing your brain that you're safe to keep taking these steps forward. So micro yeses is a big one. And also, like, a very simple one, very accessible. No matter what you're doing or where you're at, there is always a small something that you can say yes to.

Erin: Right? And that example of, like, you don't want to get up, but you're willing to roll over, it couldn't be smaller. Like, yeah, it couldn't be smaller, but I know what it feels like to be like, I can't, I can't. I just can't today. And, yeah, and. And also, I think we put the smokescreen of, like, I'm confused, I'm confused in front of us. And then that confusion sort of keeps us in paralysis. And if you can tease out one little tiny action is what it sounds like you're saying. One little, tiny thing you can say, well, I think this will be helpful for me.

Sometimes it's like sending one email or sending one text or making a really messy rough draft of something and leaving it in my drafts folder. You know, when in my mind, it's like, I have to make a huge announcement, but it's like, I can't, but I will do this small Piece that incrementally gets me a tiny bit further down the road.

Deanna: Yeah, a great example of the power of micro yeses. So I struggled with an alcohol use disorder. I drank very problematically from the time I was 19 until I was 25. So I have been alcohol free for almost 15 years.

Erin: Congratulations.

Deanna: Thank you. Yeah. Was the most stuck I ever was, for sure. But when I stopped drinking, any time I would think of the totality of what lied ahead, of not only never drinking again, but having to rebuild my life. Having to get a job, having to learn how to socialize sober, like, how to make amends to people that I had hurt in my drinking. Anytime that I would start thinking about all of those things, I would literally become so overwhelmed that I would freeze. I would feel panicky, I would feel sweaty, I would feel absolutely paralyzed. And so, you know, another recovery saying, one day at a time.

For me, it was one action at a time. Like, it wasn't like, okay, today I'm going to find a job. It was like, today I'm going to set an alarm and wake up when that alarm goes off. Today I'm going to make my bed right? Today I'm going to eat a salad or, like, whatever. Like these small, tiny, like, teeny tiny steps that I took to support myself as I made these big changes. Like, that's what added up over time. And it was all of those little changes that then allowed me to get the job, rebuild my life, reconnect with people, make amends. Like, all of those things that I needed to do.

Deanna: If I had attempted to just jump into those things immediately, those huge yeses, it would have been disastrous. You know, I would have been completely frozen. But by taking these small steps and doing these micro yeses, I am going to say yes to the smallest thing possible in this moment. That is what got me from point A to point B. I love that.

Erin: I am a big believer in brick by brick, brick by brick, step by step, inch by inch. You hear a lot of people in this, like, quick fix, Instagram coach universe that somehow my feed is, like, is just constantly inundating me with, like, this advice that is so. I don't know, I feel scolded. I feel like, well, if you're not willing to get up in the morning and work out for an hour and then do this and then do that and eat these things and whatever, then you'll never be accountable to yourself and you'll never get your dreams. And it's like, oh, my God, that's like a wholesale Adjustment in every area of my life. Like, I fail, I quit. I'm. I can't do that.

I guess I'm just doomed to where I'm at, because I can't. I can't follow this sort of, like, even if it's women coaches, this sort of macho, tough it out approach, I believe that easy does it. I believe that you can. You can gentle your way through things. Especially for those of us who have harsh inner critics who are telling us we're doing it wrong or that there are things to be scared of all the time. Like, the more we can sort of gently nudge and push ourselves. For me, the word discipline makes me want to die. It makes me want to die.

Like, I'm never going to boot camp. I'm like, I'm never going to Barry's boot camp either. I am not going to be a person who lives through discipline, but I can take productive, tiny, progressive, incremental, consistent action. And maybe not consistent every fucking day either, but in the big picture, you.

Deanna:  Know, and hold compassion for yourself as you take those actions, right? Like, this idea of, like we talked about earlier, we can't shame our way into change. So these, like, Instagram coaches you're talking about, I know exactly who you're talking about. I have them on my feed as well. Like, it's so forceful, right? And, like, if. If you're, you know, not where you want to be, it's your fault. And, like, pick yourself up by your bootstraps and make it happen, right? That's not helpful. Like, I mean, maybe it's helpful for some people, but, like, if you're already in a place where you're telling yourself these stories of, I'm incompetent, I'm doing a bad job, like, I always fail, whatever those stories are, that's just gonna, like, push you further into your story. And that actually is another technique that I want to talk about, which we've talked a lot about.

The impact that stories can have on stuckness and how stories can exacerbate stuckness and keep us stuck in our seasons of stuck. So if you find yourself with a harsh inner critic or feeling stuck in these stories that you have about yourself, about your life, about your abilities, it's important to challenge those stories and rewrite those narratives, because it's really difficult to get unstuck if your brain is constantly telling you that you're not enough or you're not worthy or you can't do it. And the way that I like to do that is I literally rewrite the stories, and I do it in forms of letters to myself. So anytime that I identify a story that I'm telling myself, I will write a letter from my future self, like my ideal self, to my present self, challenging those stories and ideas and reminding me of why those stories and ideas are not true. Right? So if I find myself stuck in a story that I'm a failure, I will, like, sit, I'll take a few breaths, and I will try to connect with this ideal future version of myself who is compassionate, who is loving, who is empathetic, who is looking back on me like, aw, like you were having such a hard time. And I will write as her all of the reasons why I'm not a failure and why I'm a success and why I'm loved and why I'm worthy and all of those things. And it feels like, you know, you might not believe it immediately. You know, it might feel like you're forcing it, but over time, physically rewriting these limiting stories and beliefs that you have about yourself and replacing them with more loving, more kind, more compassionate, and more realistic.

Because, let's be real, these stories aren't true. Like, we're not failures. We're not incompetent. The more that you expose yourself to those new stories, I have found, the more you start to believe them and the more that internal dialogue shifts to a more compassionate voice, where it's not, you're a failure, it's you're really struggling right now. How can we support ourselves in this moment in a way that aligns with our values, which is a completely different way to approach a problem? And I have found, for me, when my stories internally are more loving, are more kind, are more empathetic, are more compassionate, if I find myself stuck, I'm not keeping myself there. Right. I'm not getting stuck in the stories of why I'm stuck and how it's my fault. I'm able to recognize it and say, oh, we're here again.

That's okay. We've been here before. We will be here again. Let's figure out what's going on and how to move forward. Right. Which is such a significantly more effective way than just trying to beat myself into submission.

Erin: Right, Right. I hear so much tenderness in what you're saying, and I just feel like that's often the answer. That's often the answer. Like, not tenderness like, let yourself off the hook, but tenderness of, like, acknowledging, like, this is hard. This hurts. I'm uncomfortable. And I also am hearing re parenting from you, where you are acting as your future self. This idea of your future self is coming back to sort of parent you from a place of wisdom and a place of having overcome.

And I think that's so. Ugh, I just want her in my life. I want that future me to say, you know, this is a phase. This is a phase, and you're going to push through this because you have so much evidence that you have pushed through every other thing and you have gotten what you've wanted or what you've needed. You have the resources in you, and just you wait. Like I'm fucking awesome says future me. You're gonna love being me.

Deanna: Yes. And I want. I want to acknowledge that it can be hard to tap into that energy if we're not feeling in a great place. Like, that could be very difficult. So if that doesn't feel doable for you or for anyone listening, another strategy is to write the letter to yourself and try to write it from the perspective of the person that loves you most. Maybe that is a friend, maybe that's a partner, maybe that's a parent, a sibling. Whoever you feel just sees you and loves you and understands you and appreciates you. Pretend that you're them and write the letter that they would write you.

Or alternatively, write the letter as if you were writing it to them. If they were the ones having these thoughts of, I'm a failure, I'm not enough, what would you say to them to comfort them in that moment? I always say it would be, like, the greatest gift if we could see ourselves through the eyes of the people that love us the most. I think about the way that I love the women in my life, for example, My friends, my family. And they are just the most magnificent, incredible, smart, kind, glorious human beings in the entire world. But they have their doubts just like I do. And I just. When they're in those moments, I'm just like, ugh, I wish you could see what I see. And, like, I wish that we could all have that.

Erin: I love that. Deanna, I think that's a really, really beautiful note to end on. Is there anything that you would say to the listeners about just one last thought about what they can do to get unstuck in the areas of their lives where they're feeling like something is intractable or it's impossible to move or it's impossible to change, or the stakes are too high or it's too scary. What would you say to them?

Deanna: Yeah, I think the key is it's important to give yourself permission to change. Oftentimes, we think that we need to be who we are today, who we were yesterday. We put ourselves in these boxes, and then when those boxes are no longer a fit, we struggle, we suffer. So I think giving yourself permission to change that tomorrow, you don't have to be who you are today, that you can follow your curiosity. If things don't feel like they're working out, you can try something different. That permission is what's going to support you in taking your steps forward as you move from stuck to unstuck.

Erin: I love it. Thank you so much, Deanna. I've really enjoyed this conversation. I really. I really appreciate you leading this dialogue. I think it's super important.

Deanna: Thank you, Erin. I so appreciate it. And thank you for having me.

Erin: My pleasure.

Thanks for listening to Hotter Than Ever. If you loved this conversation with Deanna as much as I did, and it gave you some insight and motivation that you can use to look at some areas of your life where you could stand to get unstuck, please let us know.

Go on over to Instagram, post something when you see a clip of this episode, respond to how it made you feel about the places in your life where you are stuck. We all have them. And if you haven't already, please go over to Apple podcasts and write a review of Hotter Than Ever to support the show and maybe you could say something about how it's impacted you in some kind of meaningful way.

Even if it's just that I have entertained you. I will take it. I am not here to be a guru or provide all the answers. I'm right alongside you asking the same questions and trying as hard as I can to figure out how to live my best life over 40. And along the way, I hope these conversations help you solve some intractable puzzles that will help you break through to the next phase of your career, your relationship, your life as a parent, your friendships, your idea of yourself, and who you want to show up as, as a woman in this world.

Hotter Than Ever is produced by Erica Gerard and Pod kit productions. Our associate producer is Melody Carey. Music is by Chris Keating with vocals by Issa Fernandez. I will talk to you next week, hotties. Happy almost Thanksgiving. Remember, it does not have to be perfect. In fact, perfect is an entirely made up idea. It's not even a real thing. It is completely unmeasurable. Unquantifiable. Enjoy yourself. Measure your Thanksgiving by the degree to which you enjoy yourself and your loved ones. That is all that really matters in this life.