Marriage, Monogamy, Dating + Divorce with Producer Erica

Erin: Welcome to Hotter Than Ever, where we uncover the unconscious rules we've been following. We break those rules and we find a new path to being freer, happier, sexier, and more satisfied in the second half of our lives. I'm your host, Erin Keating.

Hi hotties, how are you holding up in this wild year of 2025? Holy moly, we are off to a crazy start with Los Angeles on fire and evacuations. We spent about a week displaced, but not because we were evacuated, just because when I see fire coming up over the hill and the neighborhood next to mine being evacuated, I think, why would I stick around to get stuck on the one highway that gets me out of the valley with 60,000 other potential evacuees? So we had the great good fortune to be able to go to a hotel for a couple of days and then go stay at a friend's beach house and we treated it, me, my kids, and my dog, as an evacuation vacation. Thankfully, we came back, everything was still standing and life goes on.

The inauguration has happened and we are into the second Trump regime. And these are the things that are going to impact our lives, our relationships, our cultural conversation for the years to come. And I just want to say that I haven't changed. I'm still a stand for the things that I'm a stand for. For you inventing the life that you want to live over 40. For you interrogating the rules you have lived by, and asking, are those mine? Or do those belong to somebody else?

Today, We have a conversation that Erica, my producer and I, recorded the week after I interviewed Dr. Joli Hamilton. If you didn't hear that podcast, you can go back and listen to it on any of your podcast apps. Dr. Joli Hamilton helps people to open their marriages to investigate and to enact what that looks like and if that is something you are inclined to do, she is an expert. Both Erica and I were hugely triggered by this conversation, and because we were, we thought it might be something you were reacting to as well.

And, so we created this episode to dig deep into our thoughts about monogamy, the reason people get married. How you can do marriage and longterm committed relationships differently, who you would have to be and who your partner would have to be and what you would have to be willing to do and commit to, to do that, who we get into all the things.

It is a really deep and soulful conversation. We are both vulnerable and sometimes a little raw and I hope that you find it valuable. If you're a new listener, this is something we do on a periodic basis every several months. If you are a regular listener, maybe you look forward to these episodes with me and Erica, but that is what this is. So without any further ado, this is our, oh my God, non monogamy conversation. Let's get hot.

Well, hotties, Erica and I decided we need to do another conversation episode because we both had an intense reaction to my interview with Dr. Joli Hamilton.

Erica: Yes, we did.

Erin: It was an intense reaction from both of us about the topic of open marriages and polyamory. And it's been such a hot topic this year in the zeitgeist, kind of before we got distracted by the election. And it's very provocative to me that this is a conversation that is really up, I think, especially for women and people who have been in long relationships. Although I could be wrong about that, it could be up for a whole other generation of people just from the jump. And there may have always been polyamorous people among us, but we didn't know because there was shame and stigma around it. I have one friend who is poly and has been poly for 15 years, and only recently has she felt comfortable being more outspoken about it because she didn't want the judgment, even though she's outspoken in many other areas of her life.

So I think it's a provocative topic. And my favorite thing to talk about is love and sex and relationships. One of my favorite things to talk about. And maybe we start by just checking in on where we are, respectively, so we can ground this conversation in our own sort of current reality. I'm happy to start.

So what is happening in my love and relationship life? I am currently only seeing one person, but that is not because I am in a committed love relationship with that person. That is because I go in waves with this dating thing. And over the summer, I had a wild summer, I was seeing, like, four different guys, and it was just kind of hot and heavy all the time across the board. I was just, like, really pushing myself to see, like, what is the max? What can I handle? What is, like, how much interpersonal complexity, how much sexual complexity, how much variety, how much? Yeah, you know, and, like, I was not feeling the weight of the school year. My kids were at camp a bunch of the time, like, I had more freedom and sunshine, and I just felt very free this summer. And then after the summer, I sort of decided, okay, well, there's this one guy, and all he likes to do is role play. And I wasn't into the particular role play that he was into. And he's a doll, I mean, just a complete sweetheart, but I kind of felt like he only had one gear, and I didn't really want that gear anymore.

Erica: Play gear?

Erin: One role play gear.

Erica: Yeah.

Erin: There was a guy who was sort of my neighborhood guy who I've been seeing for a couple of years, and that, I think, has fizzled to nothing. And that's interesting, because the terms of that relationship are everything is initiated by me and I feel a little bit over that right now. Like, I really want to be with people who want to be with me and are enthusiastic enough to show me that. And he was a great, who was a great lover and a great kind of escape whenever I needed it, but that sort of faded. I was in a kinkier relationship this summer, and that got complicated because of sort of issues around ethical non monogamy and his personal life and setup. Like, the way that it was set up was not gonna work for me ultimately.

Erica: I'm glad you said the word ethical non-monogamy, because we're gonna talk about that.

Erin: Yes.

Erica: In this episode.

Erin: Just like we did with Joli and that was my biggest exposure to ethical non monogamy and what that actually means. And he's a decent, good man, but it just wasn't working for me. And so I'm, like, looking right now for--

Erica:  You had a big summer.

Erin: You had a big summer.

Erica: A lot of new experiences you wanted to see. Like, what was your max? Like a couch? Like, you're measuring a couch. You know, how, what is the maximum amount of width I can use? I think that sounds very smart in a lot of, I mean, why wouldn't we figure that out at some point? For me, why not?

Erin: I had the emotional bandwidth to have real dynamics with these different men. And then I was just doing a ton of soul searching as the whole thing progressed. And it was awesome through a summer. It's not how I'm gonna live. I don't have the time to juggle that many people.

Erica: It's like a lot.

Erin: But I did for a moment there, you know, for a month or two, and it was hot and it was fun, and I felt very sexy and adored. I've had so many revelations that it's probably a separate episode, but there's one guy who I'm still seeing from the summer who just got out of a 20 year marriage and is in a wildly transitional place. It's been a slow burn for six months, and now we're able to hang out and sometimes have sleepovers. And he's adorable and totally not available for a proper relationship.

Erica: Right, right.

Erin: Because he's deep in the loss.

Erica: Yeah.

Erin: You know, so I think it's nice for him that I'm in his life he wanted to know whether I had talked about him on the podcast, he's a fan. Now I have--

Erica: Do you let your men listen to this podcast or do you tell them not to?

Erin: You can't control other people.

Erica: It's true. But you could--

Erin: You could probably tell my mom certain episodes not to listen to. I knew she would be triggered by the polyamory conversation, she's like, yep, that one's not for me. No, I mean, honestly, men in my experience, like, even when I was in love with the Marine, he would occasionally listen.

Erica: I always wondered about that, if he listened, because you would say some really, you know, pretty personal things about your relationship with him, which kind of--

Erin: He loved all, he loved it. He loved it.

Erica: He loved the attention.

Erin: Right and also he loved how anonymous he was.

Erica: Right, of course.

Erin: And that no one would connect the dots.

Erica: Yeah.

Erin: Certainly no one in his world would connect the dots.

Erica: But what about--

Erin: Part of what ended us is that the dots couldn't connect.

Erica: Yeah. You know, what about your ex-husband, though? Because when you talk about him, people know who you're talking about.

Erin: I wonder about it all the time, and I just think he's too involved in his own stuff to listen to my show.

Erica: Interesting.

Erin: And I'll let that sit there.

Erica: Okay.

Erin: Yeah.

Erica: Well, good. Okay. Well, thank you for summarizing.

Erin: Yeah, that's where I'm at. There's one cutie pie in my life, I'm flirting with another guy who's, like, so young. God, he's so hot, I can't. And also, like, I don't know, I'm hopeful. The young guys, it just doesn't ever work out because they're flakes. Just bad. They're bad planners, they're bad communicators, they're so beautiful, but--

Erica: Right.

Erin: Yeah. And I would like to fall in love. I mean, that's a new, that's a new thing. You know, I'm recovered from the last heartbreak and I would really like to fall in love. And so, you know, I'm approaching things a little bit with a little bit more depth. When it feels right, when a person is not a viable person, then I don't do that, but--

Erica: Right, you guard your heart.

Erin: Yeah, but I would like to-- I would like to find someone to be in a real thing with.

Erica: Good. I'm glad you said that.

Erin: Yeah. What about you, Erica?

Erica: I am not ready to fall in love. I am not looking to fall in love at all. My summer was spent going through a divorce, getting divorced. I'm now divorced, but through the summer, that's what was happening. I'm kind of in the aftermath. I'm still doing a bit of an autopsy to figure out all the things, even though I know I know them. I'm not having any new revelations about it. I'm thinking about what's best for me.

Erin: Good.

Erica: And being, being alone is what's best for me. And I do think and wonder if I'm going to want to start dating at some point, if I want to get involved with someone again, if I want to be in a relationship again. It just from where I sit now seems like an improbability. And I don't know if that's because I'm still in the. I'm in a little bit of like a men are disappointing face. And also since the election, the dial on that has just turned way up. And I've joined all of these, you know, 4B Movement Facebook pages. Have you've heard of the 4B Movement?

Erin: I have, but maybe our listeners have not.

Erica: Okay, the 4B movement is, it's originally came from Korea where there was a very low fertility rate because women stopped sleeping with men. And the reason that they stopped sleeping with men is because they were tired of being treated as second class citizens in society. And there was a lot of misogyny just built into the culture they were dealing with. A lot of just, I, I think of maybe, you know, the US level of misogyny, but no one's hiding it at all. It's just like unabashed, out in the open. So women just decided collectively to stop sleeping with men. And the four B's, the, the B's are Korean words, and I don't know what they are, but essentially it's new dating, no sleeping with men, no having children with men, and no getting married.

Erin: Okay, so that's just a separatist movement.

Erica: Yeah, it's just, you know, we're done with this shit and we are going to find fulfillment, meaning and satisfaction on our own, independent of men.

Erin: So you're following these Facebook groups because that's how you're feeling?

Erica: That's how I'm feeling. I'm very much in a decenter men mentality because I've fucking put men front and center my whole life. And I think a lot of women can relate to that. We've been groomed to put men at the center of our life many ways.

Erin: That's the prize like love and marriage and relationship and family and children and all that stuff that comes with this sort of heteronormative ideal, you know, and transpose your own sexuality onto that. There's still an ideal there, even if you're not hetero. Although it's more porous. I certainly, you know, I realize that, like, my default is boys. Like, my default is going on the dating apps, my default is making a plan, my default is fixing my roster and finding new recruits. And I'm a little bit embarrassed by that because I am such a feminist and because I am all about empowering women. But for me, it sits in the context of having had a really unsatisfying marriage for 20 years.

Erica: Yeah, yeah.

Erin: And it sits in the context of a marriage with no sex for the last 10 years.

Erica: Right.

Erin: And it sits in the context of being a person who really only thought I was valuable for what was above my neck. You know, the, the intelligence I bring to things, the organizational skills, the labor, the drive. I was so dissociated from my body for most of my life and also so unwilling to get hurt in, in romantic relationships. You know, you say you're not really in a postmortem autopsy moment. I feel like I will never not be in a postmortem autopsy moment for my marriage.

Erica: I am, I didn't mean to suggest that I'm not. I'm saying that I, I know what went wrong, and yet I'm still playing the tape over and over again.

Erin: It's so fresh. It's so fresh, Erica, you have to give yourself all the time. For me, I had at least five years of mourning the marriage inside the marriage, and I would have left if I didn't have kids. But for me, having my kids were five when like the biggest crisis of the marriage happened. And I had just started this enormous job and I was in California by myself, like, with no family around other than our little unit. And I was like, well, I don't know how to do that, so I guess I have to stay in this thing. But I was in it watching it die.

Erica: Yeah.

Erin: So that when I got out of it, I was like, woohoo. Hit the ground running. Although I don't know that I would have predicted that that was going to happen.

Erica: Well, we all kind of watch it die to a certain extent, you know, because you don't, you don't come to that decision lightly. It's not, you don't just wake up one day and go, okay, I think, I think we're done. And there's--

Erin: Although build up to it. I feel like maybe men more than women, like, in my experience, they can be on and then off. They are less comfortable in the liminal spaces, in the gray. Maybe that's just the men I choose.

Erica: That's interesting. I think it was interesting to hear you say that you felt like your value came from the neck up, because my experience is that my value was from the waist down. In my marriage, that was really present for me.

Erin: Not even tits.

Erica: Okay. Yeah, you're right. Let me raise that bar down.

Erin: Yeah.

Erica: Tits down. From tits down. Yeah, I do have really nice breasts, so I really give myself.

Erin: Don't give them short shrift, I'm sure he didn't either.

Erica: He did not. But, yeah.

Erin: I think that's a common experience. Yeah, I think that's probably more common than what I experienced. And neither is fun, right?

Erica: It says a lot about what resulted for you in terms of, okay, now I'm gonna go and be hyper present with my body. Really understand what my body needs and give it what it wants. And I am like, shut that shit down. You know, I I don't want to be even looked at the wrong way right now.

Erin: Which for other people would be the right way. You don't want any attraction coming your way.

Erica: I mean, a good flirt is fun. I do enjoy that, but it's funny, I just wrote this down before our conversation today, but I'm really in a place right now where I feel like sex with men that they take from me in a way that robs me of something that. Like my spirit or my essence or my nature and I end up feeling worse afterwards.

Erin: I think a lot of women feel that way. I also think that's partially because a lot of men aren't good lovers.

Erica: That may be true. That means, you know, they're dealing with their own shit. I mean, they have a lot of neuroses when it comes to sex, at least that's my experience. And they can't seem to get past it.

Erin: Yeah, it's funny, the guys who have stuck around in my universe are definitely givers. I don't want them if they're not, to be honest, good. No, I don't have any use for anything that's not that.

I mean, you know, I'm seeking pleasure, so if I'm not getting pleasure, then what am I doing? If it's not working for both of us, that my pleasure is centered, then what am I doing? I'm not saying I'm not a team player. I'm definitely a team player, but I wouldn't be able to tolerate feeling taken from.

Erica: I think it's more. It has more to do with emotional intimacy than it does just sexual intimacy. When I say that, I mean that there is a misalignment there where there should be a convergence of emotional intimacy, physical intimacy. And when you are having physical intimacy with a partner who is a long term partner, who there's love involved and there's an absence of emotional connection, an absence of emotional intimacy, then the act can feel very disconnected and very different.

Erin: Sure.

Erica: And that's where I feel that something is being taken.

Erin: Yes, I relate to that. And I think a lot of women feel that way. It's like even if you have emotional intimacy of some kind outside the bedroom, sometimes it doesn't translate into the bedroom. Or maybe it doesn't translate into the bedroom in the way that you want it to, ever. And that's like a thing that you both need to work on together. And some people can work on things and other people cannot. And some people can work on certain things and are not willing to work on other things. For me, like a super sexual, emotionally connected relationship is what I want in the long term.

But because I can't get it all in one package right now, I'm willing to get a little something over here and a little emotional connection over here and a little bit of this from this and cobble it all together. And maybe that's a good transition to the conversation about polyamory because I feel like that's what Joli Hamilton was talking about.

Erica: Yes, you're right. To summarize my kind of high level takeaway from her conversation with you, it seemed to me what she was saying is if you are not getting the sexual variety that you need personally, whether it be because you're not getting that emotional connection, whether it be the sex just isn't great, whether it be you're fraysexual and you like newness and novelty.

Erin: What was that word?

Erica: Fraysexual?

Erin: What's that?

Erica: Oh, it's the opposite of demisexual. So people who are demisexual, they only really want to have sex with people that they know really, really, really well.

Erin: Yeah.

Erica: Have a very strong connection to. And people who are fraysexual, they prefer to have novelty and newness and they just like to have sex with people that they don't know very well.

Erin: Okay which is probably very present in the swinger community, which is more about the sport of sex.

Erica: I don't think so. I think that it's, I actually know people in long term committed relationships who would describe themselves as fraysexual, but they aren't because they've made a commitment to monogamy. I would consider myself fraysexual to a certain extent, that if I'm going to be in a monogamous relationship, then I have different needs.

Erin: That's so interesting. People talk about NRE, which is new relationship energy, and maybe that's like a way of chasing that. I want to add a layer to what you said about poly and what you took away from Joli because she said, I've fallen in love with people my whole life. I used to fall in love with my girlfriends as a young woman. And for her polyamory, many loves. Like her negotiation with new partners is about like, are you available to say I love you? Are you available to be emotionally in this with me? If you're just seeking sex, that might be okay, but that might not be what I'm looking for right now. I think people can define poly in whatever way works for them. But to my mind, the people I know who really identify with being poly, which is only a handful of people, are people who are in love with multiple people at the same time.

Erica: Right.

Erin: Love relationship, a committed sort of whatever. The definition of the commitment is love relationship with more than one person and everybody has to navigate that. And maybe the other people in the partnership also are in love relationships with other people. That can include the primary partner or not.

Erica: Right. It's not just as simple as we're in an open marriage or we're in. And you know that.

Erin: Which is not simple in and of itself because you have to the terms of that.

Erica: Struck me about what you just said and what Joli said is this, the sheer amount of negotiating happen, there's so much negotiation. Who has time for all of that?

Erin: People who want the payoff.

Erica: And who's available for that?

Erin: Well, that's the big question to me. What man? Because I can understand women having the bandwidth to negotiate emotionally and to process what's happening and to stay in touch and to stay connected around these different changing dynamics. What I have a hard time imagining is the kind of man that I'm attracted to being game for this level of open, honest communication.

Erica: I can't even find a man who understands his own emotions, much less manages the dynamics of a group of people's emotions.

Erin: No. Okay, so I brought this idea up just to feel the waters with the Marine. I was like, what would you think about a guy whose wife had sex with other people? Or his girlfriend has sex with other people. And he was like, that guy's a pussy. I was like, oh, okay, conversation ended.

Erica: And scene.

Erin: Because to him, it's a sign of weakness, you know, that things are supposed to be a certain way, you're in a heterosexual thing, you are coupled. That's your sex person. That's your love person. And if you let go of that, you let that person be, what? I don't know, engaged, with, violated. I don't know what the language would have been for him, but it was certainly never going to be about her empowerment or open communication, trust, emotional, whatever. Checking in, like, he couldn't talk about his feelings on any level, which was perfectly good for me in the first year after my separation.

Erica: Sure.

Erin: Because I had been talking about feelings for a decade and not getting fucked.

Erica: Yeah.

Erin: So like for me, it was like, great, like, we have a great time together. The sex is hot, I really admired him in a lot of ways. And then when it came to, like, we have to figure out how to talk about feelings, it was over.

Erica: Yeah.

Erin: But I think a lot of men, that would be their reaction. Well, that he's an extreme version of that.

Erica: Probably because men are so jealous. They don't--I did a paper on this. I studied this in college, okay. I did a paper on jealousy and how men and women experience jealousy and what I found, and this will not be surprising to you, that men are more jealous of physical infidelity and women are more jealous of emotional infidelity.

Erin: Sure, because they're the rarer things.

Erica: Yes.

Erin: Right. Like it's so rare to find a man who you have an emotional connection with. And it's for men, sex is more scarce than it is for women who choose to have it not be. You know, I haven't, I could have as much sex as I want, so could you. Men, the kind of, it's harder for them to figure out how to get that happening if that's what they want.

Erica: I don't know. I think there's just a lot of other dynamics at play. Ego.

Erin: Totally, totally. Making it way too simple. I'm just, that's one point to make.

Erica: Yeah. I think women value emotional connection in a way that men don't.

Erin: Perhaps.

Erica: Maybe men. It's just, it's like biological. It goes back to caveman times, like, you, my woman, you have slept with me only.

Erin: So Middle Eastern cavemen were in the middle. I mean, turkey really is where it kind of all started. The cradle of civilization. Anyway, going on.

Erica: Yeah. So anyway, all this to say that sexual variety was a theme that came up with Dr. Joli, and she was finding, and it came from her saying that there was a libido mismatch in her marriage, and they never resolved that and she was the one who had a higher libido, and she needed to address it. And I think you and I both were fascinated that she came to a point where it was like, okay, we need to renegotiate the terms of this marriage, and we're going to continue to negotiate those terms every three years.

Erin: Every year, they would have a meeting. In her current marriage, every year they have a meeting, and then every three years, they have a like, do we want out of this? And your reaction was like, why are you even married?

Erica: Yeah. If you're gonna have a touch point every three years about whether or not you still want to be in the marriage, then why, what is the point of marriage to begin with?

Erin: Well, what is the point of marriage?

Erica: Look, as someone who's newly not married, I will say I wanted to get married because I came from a divorced family. Almost everyone in my family is divorced. And it was important to me because I felt like I was a runner and I was a commitment-phobe, and I believed that marriage was a way that I could heal that wound for me personally. But now-- and I liked being married. There were times where I was married, I love being married. I love the feeling of being married.

There's, like, a bond that is beautiful, and it's unique, and it's just for us. I don't know that I need to experience that again now that I have. But if I was going to be constantly renegotiating whether the marriage worked for me or not, I can't say that that would make a lot of sense, in my opinion, to be the kind of person that gets married. If you're going to have those conversations.

Erin: I don't know where I landed with that is, I don't know, I mean, for me, I also liked being married because it solved the problem of being single. And I did not-- I wanted to be married. Okay, I did not set out to get married, but once I wanted to be partnered, and once I was married, I thought, well, this is so nice, because it's really hard to get out, like, which forces you to go back in, so, you know, you can't run away from it. It is what you have committed to. It's not disposable in the same way. It was not my ideal, my ideal was a thing where we would choose each other every day again and again and again, and where we didn't need the government's involvement, but it's not the person I married. That's not what he wanted. So he wanted to get married and I was like, great, someone wants to marry me. How wonderful, because I wanted babies. And that was the timing that I was working, I was working on a clock.

Erica: Sure.

Erin: You know? And so I really enjoyed the forcing function of marriage, which is you have to come back to each other again and again, unless you want to be miserable inside a thing and agree to be miserable because you're in it. We managed to be miserable anyway, a lot of people do, but in the beginning, that's how it felt. It felt like, how wonderful, this is requiring us to go deeper. This is requiring us to choose each other, because we have already chosen each other in such a big and binding way.

Erica: Except what you just said is what I experienced as true for me as well, which is, if it's gonna come to a point where it's just broken, irreparable, then is the basic premise flawed, this idea that marriage is going to force us to work through our shit if we're just going to inevitably end up in a place where we're like, yeah, this is not going to be worth it.

Erin: What do you mean inevitable? Because marriage works for a lot of people.

Erica: No, I just meant in our example.

Erin: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was willing to give it a shot, you know, I was willing to try marriage. And because I wanted kids and because that's how it conventionally goes, I was not going to fight city hall on that. Like, I was gonna, I was like, okay, great, we'll get married, we'll have kids. I didn't change my name--wasn't foresight. It wasn't foresight, it was. I just couldn't understand that tradition, I couldn't understand.

I had a girlfriend who was like and then I'm like, part of him and part of his family. I don't know, it was me, I was in my mid-30s. Like, my whole life I had been this one person wanted maybe a different person altogether with a different name. I was not willing to do that, that did not feel right to me and so I didn't do it. He didn't like it, but, you know, that was not a place where I was willing to give.

Erica: Do you think that you could have gotten to a place with him or maybe even started off on the foot where you would have those kinds of check ins that she's talking about. Every year we check in, how is this every three years? Do we still want this?

Erin: No, because my ex had so much stuff going on personally in terms of his family history, in terms of his, his own well being. And I think part of getting married for him was he wanted to prove to the world that he was normal, prove to himself that he could do normal things, which is heartbreaking.

Erica: Yeah, I mean, who doesn't want to prove we make marriage out to be the be all, end all of evolved, you know, personhood. And that's not unique to him.

Erin: No.

Erica: Let him off the hook there.

Erin: Yeah, I mean, I let him off the hook in so many ways for so many things and we were both very challenged as people going into marriages. I had so much distrust, earned distrust, but so much distrust, so little willingness to be vulnerable because I was afraid of getting hurt. And I chose someone who was okay with that. And you know, we tried really hard to evolve together, but what happened was we evolved apart and we kept going back to couples therapy. We kept, I mean, I kept insisting to myself that this was going to last, that we were going to make this work. But I was very, very, very unhappy and very in denial for a very long time. And you know, eventually I gave myself permission to be happy.

Erica: Do you think that if you opened your marriage that that would have your--

Erin: It would never, ever, ever, ever, ever have worked because he couldn't tell the truth.

Erica: Okay.

Erin: So he's not a person who had a great relationship with the truth.

Erica: Do you think he would ever get married again?

Erin: Me?

Erica: Yeah, you.

Erin: Oh, yeah, me. You're talking to me. I think he would. He says to the kids that he wouldn't get married again. I really hope he does. It would be nice for him to have someone to take care of him.

Erica: I mean, you.

Erin: Yeah, I know.

Erica: But very sweet that you want him to have--

Erin: I really desperately want a woman to--

Erica: Take care of him.

Erin: Yeah, I want him to get married so that he'll be taken care of so that doesn't land on me.

Erica: Somebody else's problem.

Erin: Yeah, 100%. I don't know, probably not.

Erica: This new Gwen Stefani has this new song out called "You're Somebody Else's Problem Now" and loving it.

Erin: I think I probably will not get married again. But like, who knows? Who knows? There are a lot of reasons as you get older that you want to be married, like for financial benefit, for the stability, for health care proxy. Like there's a bunch of shit that comes into play when you get older in terms of sharing the sort of the weight of aging and also the resources with someone that you love. Like, I don't know, I see it financially and medically beneficial potential.

So I don't know, but as far as, like, what I am looking for right now, I am looking for love and partnership and an emotionally evolved relationship where I can talk about my needs and have them be met.

Erica: And what about monogamy, though?

Erin: You know, I've never not been monogamous when I've been in a relationship, so I think my ideal is a foundation of monogamy with the potential for some sexual stuff that involves other people, but maybe isn't me going off alone. Like, what I would want is for, like, the heat of whatever the experimentation we do together to accrue to us as a couple. For everything to kind of come back to the relationship, as opposed to me being off in the world having a totally separate thing. Like, I don't think I could handle a partner who had other love relationships. Like, I'm greedy and selfish, and I want all of it, you know?

Erica: And so that's what Dr. Joli was saying, was that to an extent, that is what we all have to confront about ourselves. I don't think anybody is like, yes, gung ho, can't wait to watch their partner go fuck somebody else.

Erin: I don't know about that.

Erica: Okay, there's people that, for sure, that's their kink, or that's their thing. But I mean, by and large, it seems that we've all been conditioned to believe that monogamy is the goal and that if we can find the right person, we can, that will be enough monogamy. Sex with that person will be enough and what she was saying is, is that it's. And maybe that's why it was so confronting for us, because what she was saying was, perhaps it's not enough no matter who the person is. And maybe that's okay, and maybe that there's this whole other world available to you on the other side if you can just confront those feelings of jealousy and those feelings of, you know, I want this person only for me.

Erin: Right, Totally.

Erica: We totally negotiate that.

Erin: What I love about this conversation and having these conversations about different ways to do love and relationship is we are confronting the cultural expectations and narrative that I think. I really think that everything at this point in our lives should be up for grabs and. And that we should suspend judgment around the way other people do things and learn from them, because, you know, any long term relationship has the potential of getting stale in different ways.

Erica: Yeah, right.

Erin: And for me, like the idea of being monogam-ish or having this sort of creative monogamy, which is what she was talking about, I don't know if I could handle it. But in an ideal world, it sounds hot to me.

Erica: Yeah.

Erin: And wouldn't my partner put the right person also think that sounded hot, you know, and so, and if the goal for me is to have a hot and spicy life with someone, you know, well into my 80s or whatever, like, then, then having the ability to negotiate and renegotiate seems important. But what it was hard for me to imagine is finding the man who was the kind of man that I could be hot for in the long term, who had all the characteristics of the right kind of partner for me, who would be secure enough and communicative enough and emotionally evolved enough to be able to manage that kind of negotiation in the long term.

Erica: Well, I think that, that it has to be a subject that gets brought up early then.

Erin: Yeah, you have.

Erica: And we are not accustomed to having that conversation in the dating phase.

Erin: Oh no, I mean, my therapist always says you wait too long to say what your needs are. You know, so I'm literally always like now I sort of foreground when I meet someone, I'm like, it's really hard for me to ask for what I need. I try to act like I don't have any needs. I'm gonna get weird sometimes when I feel like I'm too much or I'm. I'm asking for too much by asking for anything. Like I, I'm working on this stuff, I try to foreground that because I'm a grown up and I'm responsible for myself and you know, and then it goes how it goes, right? Then it's on me to say what I need and to say what I think and to be willing to accept the consequences of whatever conversation it is that I need to have. For me, it's always been like, well, if you say X, then this person disappears, that was the model of my childhood. If I am too honest about my needs, then, you know, well, then I can just have one parent.

Erica: And imagine saying to that same person. And I'm not sure if I'm a hundred percent into monogamy forever, which I think would be so hard when you're just dating somebody because maybe they make all kinds of assumptions about that. Like, oh, she's not into monogamy, does that mean I can go fuck around as much as I want, or I mean, it just takes a very mature person to be able to hear that and not make a lot of unnecessary meaning out of it.

Erin: Well, it's an opening to a conversation, it's not the end to a conversation. I mean, it's the beginning of a lot of conversation, as opposed to being like and this is what I think. And this, you know, like, with monogamy, it's like, and we assume that we're only ever going to have sex with each other for the rest of our lives. Okay, okay, like, meanwhile, that's not how people operate, they cheat.

Erica: Yeah.

Erin: Like, infidelity is just entirely normal, and we act like it's not. And it's something we don't know how to deal with because it's shoved under the rug and it's so shameful. But maybe if you were like, yeah, I'm attracted to a lot of different people, I'm not going to act on it unless you're cool with that. You know, Like, I don't know, I don't know how to have the conversations, but I do know that there's an entire world of people who are willing to have those conversations. Now, for me, I feel like all of those people go to the Renaissance.

Erica: Fair and we're saying people kind of nerds. It's like the nerds who are super into polyamory and what have figured out that the rest of us haven't?

Erin: I don't know.

Erica: I don't know either.

Erin: I don't know, but there is such a profound overlap. And, you know, that's why I take great pains to say, well, the type of guy that I would be interested in, like, I'm not interested in nerdy guys, that doesn't do it for me.

Erica: Well, I think nerds are just more comfortable with being misunderstood, and they don't really care how the world perceives them because they've faced that kind of judgment their whole life. But if you're somebody who is not accustomed to going against the grain or doing things that are really outside of our social and cultural norms, then it's going to be much more difficult.

Erin: But nerd culture is mass culture now. Like, it's, you know, if I don't know about that, I don't know that they're such outsiders. You know, I think it's something in the way the brain operates. Like, I don't know. There's something in there's like a, an agility or flexibility there that just to frame it positively, you know, that I don't have.

Erica: Well, there's, I feel like there's more imagination, there's more acceptance, works, tolerance. There's just more playfulness in a lot of ways.

Erin: Yeah, like, you're never gonna catch me cosplaying. But like, I really admire how awesome those outfits are and how much those people enjoy that and being part of a community and a culture, you know, like, I can understand how poly overlaps with that. Yeah, it's kind of a shared set of alternative rules. You know, Dragons has a lot of different rules. Sorry, I can't make you a lot of nerd jokes.

Erica: To bring it back to this fundamental question of is, is monogamy normal? Is it our default? Is it, is it healthy?

Erin: You know, I think, well, those are two different things.

Erica: People that would say because of the numbers of infidelity that, well, we aren't really meant to be monogamous, humans are not built that way. But we are making a choice every day in a relationship to be that way. Would it be in our benefit to just reevaluate this whole notion of monogamy on a mass scale for human beings?

Erin: I mean, when you say we weren't meant to, whatever, we weren't meant to live this long. We weren't. Marriages weren't meant to be as long as they are now. Like, you know, we, we have historically not lived to be a hundred years old. Now, that's pretty normal. Hearing about people who are 100, like hearing about 60 year marriages, 70 year marriages, what the fuck? Like, that's wild, right? People used to die at 40 or before 40, you know, and, and women were pregnant the whole time. Like, we're in a completely different paradigm where we have reproductive freedom today to the degree that we have it.

Erica: Yeah.

Erin: We have financial freedom that we've never had before as women. You know that our generation is the first generation of women who grew up with all of these things. We have infinite choice due to the Internet, you know, and, and being able to choose mates online. I mean, it is a, was a very different paradigm than even our parents paradigm. And so I am never in the, I'm never that engaged in the conversation about, like, what should we all do? Like, what interests me the most is people getting really in touch. Women getting really in touch with themselves.

Erica: Yeah.

Erin: And what they think might work for them. Like, what is the ultimate choice? Experimentation, freedom, agency. Like, what makes you feel the best about yourself in this world? You know what makes you feel the most loved, what makes you feel the sexiest, what makes you feel the most empowered, you know. And people who have been on the podcast, like Juliana Hauser, talks about agency. And if you can find your agency in the bedroom, you can find it in the rest of your life.

Erica: Sure. But I mean, more so should we all be having the conversation? Not necessarily doing the same thing, but there are certain things that just start changing in the zeitgeist. Like, we don't assume all of a sudden that we come into the world with fixed pronouns, and that's it. Now we know that we might need to have a conversation with ourselves and say, oh, am I someone who identifies as.

Erin: Her? Feel right to me.

Erica: But maybe we need to be having the conversation, oh, am I someone that identifies with monogamy, or am I someone who actually, I'm not my best self within the confines of that definition? And if we aren't talking about it as a culture, then how are we going to even begin to make these types of changes if they are what we end up needing?

Erin: Right. Look, I heard Elizabeth Gilbert, who wrote "Eat, Pray, Love", which is, you know, such an influential book on me at the time, when I read it, she, you know, she's chasing relationships with men in that book. Then she had a relationship with a woman, maybe more than one, and now she's like, you know what? I'm not my best self when I'm in a relationship.

Erica: Yeah.

Erin: And, like, I kind of don't need it. Like, I kind of don't want it. I'm more productive. I'm happier. Takes away a lot of energy from me and negotiating and navigating that. Like, I'm good. I'm feeling pretty good. Like, I really like being able to take off and travel and do whatever and not have to get anybody's input on that.

Like, God bless. Like, talk about following your own path, your own muse, your own journey in life. Like, she is a real hero of mine in that way, because it's like, in different seasons of your life, you need different things, you know? And so I just love, even though the idea of being with someone who wants to sleep with other people scares the shit out of me. The idea of being with someone who doesn't mind if I sleep with other people seems lovely.

Erica: Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm sort of in Elizabeth Gilbert's camp right now. I'm kind of like, back to this, where we started, this notion of de-centering the relationship from being the focus of our lives. But the next, you know, I don't know if, when I do get into another relationship, I don't know if I want to be with one person for the rest of my life. And in fact, I'm definitely, after listening to that episode, curious if that's a world I want to experiment with.

Erin: Yeah, me too. And, you know, and I think it comes down to what one listener wrote on the Hotter Than Ever pod Instagram, just like, I have a hard enough time finding one great person, like, thinking about finding multiple great people who I want to be in multiple relationships with at the same time and navigate that complexity, like, that's like, not even in the realm of possible because one great person is so hard to find. And I agree, if I was to find, like, the man of my dreams who could have the kind of emotional, emotionally evolved and aligned relationship that I would like to have and who, you know, could treat me in the way that I feel like I deserve to be treated and that I would be crazy about, like, I might just put the whole sleeping with other people conversation, you know, on the shelf forever. Because if that's not something they want, but they are what I want, and they're so elusive, then, okay, like, well, that's, maybe don't get everything all the time at the same time. You know, maybe this is just my season for this and then I go back to monogamy and I go back to something that looks a little bit more conventional and that could be totally okay.

Erica: Yeah, and if it's that difficult to find a person who can meet all of your needs, then maybe we should stop trying and we should be dating multiple people who can meet the various needs that we have. It is a lot to expect out of one person, maybe completely unreasonable.

Erin: Yeah. I mean, I have been doing the composite approach, you know, for, you know, most of the last. I don't know, except for the year and whatever that I was with the Marine. I've been out of my marriage for two and a half years, separated and then divorced and most of the time I've been sort of cobbling it together, cobbling my needs together with a bunch of different people and retaining my autonomy and independence because I'm a mother of teenagers and I don't have the fucking bandwidth to put into a relationship that isn't the right one.

Erica: Yeah, like, you're still open to finding the right one.

Erin: So more than ever, honestly, because I'm less scared of feelings.

Erica: Yeah.

Erin: I feel like okay. I'd rather love and get my heart broken than keep myself safe, quote, unquote. Because that's how I did it for the first 50 years and that didn't work so great for me.

Erica: Yeah.

Erin: I wasn't living enough. I want to be living more. And if that means risking more, okay, I'm willing to do that now. Because I don't feel like it's going to ruin me. When I was young, I really thought it would ruin me, I couldn't handle it.

Erica: Yeah, well, that's what our hearts are for, right? They're to be beaten up and used and broken and filled, and that's why we have them. We might as well just give them what they've been built for.

Erin: I totally see where you are, Erica, and I just, it's totally understandable where you are and you don't ever have to want anything. You don't ever have to want a relationship or sex or marriage or anything. Like, you could be a hundred percent happy doing it. Your life for you forever. A lot of women make that choice. You know, maybe on the other side of healing from the divorce, you'll feel differently and maybe you won't, you know?

Erica: Yeah. Who knows? I definitely am a creature of connection, and I love love. But I definitely have had enough pain, I feel like, for one lifetime. But to be continued.

Erin: Yes. Always to be continued.

Erica: Yeah.

Erin: Thank you for this conversation. I think it's really. I mean, it's what's going on in my head all the time.

Erica: Same. Yeah, me too. And I bet that you, who is listening to this, you probably are thinking about someone who might benefit from hearing this conversation as well.

Erin: So please, share it.

Erica: Share it with them. You know, we're here for each other. We help each other. These are new waters that we're navigating, and I think these conversations need to be had.

Erin: Yep. That's why we're having them. Thanks, Erica. I appreciate it. Appreciate you.

Erica: Love you, friend.

Erin: Love you, too.

Thanks for listening to Hotter Than Ever. If this conversation was intriguing or provocative to you, if it is something that reminds you of conversations you've had with your friends or your loved ones, please share this episode with the people in your life.

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Hotter Than Ever is produced by Erica Girard, who you heard in this episode, and PodKit Productions. Our associate producer is Melody Carey. Music is by Chris Keating with vocals by Issa Fernandez.