Planning Ahead for Being an Empty Nester with Jodi Silverman

Erin: Welcome to Hotter Than Ever, where we uncover the unconscious rules we've been following. We break those rules and we find a new path to being freer, happier, sexier, and more satisfied in the second half of our lives. I'm your host, Erin Keating.

How is everyone doing these days? I am feeling a general tension and malaise in the air, a feeling of uncertainty and an undercurrent of anxiety that has to do with a fast pace of change on a governmental and cultural and economic level in our country, in the radical new direction that this nation is taking. And that is not something that we collectively signed up for. Yes, it is something that some people have signed up for, but not all of us. And what do we do with all of these feelings?

This buzzing pulse of what can sometimes feel like impending doom. I ask myself that question every day in this time when a week feels like a year and everything is so accelerated and uncertain. What do we do? How do we best take care of ourselves? How do we listen to our guts and make decisions from there and not from fear? How do we continue on this path of reinvention? Or if you haven't started that, how do you start that in a moment like this, when things don't feel so stable in our world? How do you stay confident in yourself and the direction you want your life to take and not just like, hunker down and make yourself really small? It is not, not easy. It is not an easy moment to be a woman in America, to be an older person in America, to be a person who is in the second half of their life in America. It is not an easy time. And yet you cannot go back, there is nowhere to go back to. We have no choice but to go forward.

And in order to go forward, we have to cultivate some kind of optimism and some sense of our own agency. You know, there is no question corporate grind I could ever go back to. That feels like the jobs and the working environments that I've had in the past. I don't think I could tolerate it given the recovery that I've had from that way of working. There is no bad marriage I could ever go back to for any reason. There is no ladder that I think I could climb that I did not build myself. Is this sounding familiar to you? Is this a rallying cry for self reliance and empowerment that you need to hear today? God, I hope so. I say things because I need to hear someone say them.

So I hope that's helpful to you. And what I will say is that the thing that I keep coming back to even in the most challenging moments. And there have been some challenging moments in my recent past and in my day to day life. What I need to do and what I have been doing is looking at the things that are bringing me joy and making me feel good and whole in my life today. And those things all have to do with, with care, with feeling connected to other human beings, feeling connected to myself, feeling healthy in my body like I can care for myself and then I can care for the people in my life who mean the most to me. My friends, my family, and most especially my kids. My kids just turned 14, my twins. And I have become acutely aware that as a single mom I am their person and they are my people and these will be the most important relationships that any of the three of us ever have. They will be the most important relationship in my life and I will be the most important person in my kids life for as long as we all live and even beyond that. And they're going to high school in August, so I only have four more years with them at home if I do my job right, if I launch them into the world as self reliant human beings.

Now of course they may come back for different periods, but our collect objective goal for the three of us is that they have a great high school experience, that we spend loving time together, that I nurture and support them this chapter of their lives and that we get them off to college so that they can go invent themselves and find their own places in the world. I have become really aware of the fact that they will eventually launch and that that time horizon is that what time horizon means? That moment in time is coming sooner than we can even imagine and I need to make the most of the time we have together and also plan for what will happen when they leave for college, which brings me to my guest today.

My guest today is Jodi Silverman. She is a passionate advocate and coach for women who are navigating the empty nest phase of life, empowering them to reclaim their identities and find joy in this next chapter. Through her Moms who Dare program and community, she helps women rediscover their passions, build confidence and create fulfilling lives beyond motherhood. This is a practical, non nonsense, inspiring conversation that I suspect many of you need to hear. Do you have kids? Do you have kids in middle school or high school? Do you have kids who have already left for college? I suggest you listen to this podcast with an ear towards how you can make the most of this next chapter of your life when you are no longer primarily identified by the moniker mom. Maybe there are other people in your life who need to hear this conversation too, maybe you have teenagers and you're doing college chores. It is never too soon to start thinking about yourself and what comes next for you. All right, let's get hot.

Jodi Silverman, welcome to Hotter than Ever.

Jodi: Oh, I'm so excited to be here, Erin, thank you. And hi to all the listeners out there. Very excited.

Erin: Thank you. I love this topic because I think that it is something that takes women moms by surprise. I think we are so immersed in the raising of our children and the sort of getting them ready to launch into the world that we don't really spend adequate time thinking about what our lives are going to look like once we have done the incredible work of launching our kids into the world. And you know, graduation might be imminent, all of these college searches, all of these things, and then, you know, their kids are out of the house and, and whoa, like that is a very different moment in life. And I would love to hear about your journey to becoming an advocate for women at this stage.

Jodi: Yeah, so yes, yes, yes to everything you just said, Erin, because we all know when we become moms, that our goal is to raise our children to be able to be self sufficient, to leave, to go launch, to go buy, to go build. And yet when it happens, we are left like with the, oh my God, now what? Like really, what just happened? Where'd they go? Who am I? So it for me, both my children were in high school at the time that I had that, oh my God, now what moment. My daughter was a senior, my son was a freshman, and I found myself alone in a very quiet space. And I remember sitting there thinking, so I'm gonna have a lot more time left because my daughter's graduating and my son is a year from getting his license and I truly believe that when they get their driver's license, that's the very first phase of empty nest right there. And I remember thinking, I'm gonna have a lot more time and space available for me. What do I wanna do with it? And is what I'm doing really what I want to be doing?

Erin: Right, do you want your current employment or the way that you spend your time to fill up that whole swath of time that is left when your child rearing day to day stuff is, is no longer happening?

Jodi: Yeah, and my answer to that question was, oh, no, no, no, no. I'm keeping it clean. But it was like, oh, hell no. Like, hell no, I don't want to sell printing services the rest of my life. Like, that was the last thing. And I remember that moment--you have those moments, Erin, and anybody listening out there where you could like, see as you're telling the story, you can see yourself in that moment. I can see it, aqnd I remember thinking, hell no, I don't want to do this. Didn't know what I wanted to do, I didn't know what it meant, I just knew in that moment that selling printing was not going to be it.

And in hindsight, looking back, now that I know what I know in the personal growth world, letting myself ask that question and then answer it honestly opened up my heart and my mind to opportunities that presented themselves, that were waiting for me, that I might have been resistant to had I not had that conversation with myself.

Erin: Yeah, I mean, because I think--there's this great Oprah clip going around where Trevor Noah asks her, what is it that every successful person, you know, has in common? And she says, they know what they want. They know what they want, so that when things come to them or when they cultivate opportunities, they know what to say yes to and what to say no to, because the yes leads to the thing they want and the no makes more room for the things to come in that are yeses to the things they want.

Jodi: Absolutely, and I would also--I sometimes I like flipping it for the person who says, but I don't know what I want. Start with what you don't want.

Erin: Oh, my God.

Jodi: Like, I didn't know what I wanted to be. I really didn't. But I knew I didn't want to sell printing the rest of my life. With the I knew I wasn't going to grow my print business during the empty space. So knowing what I didn't want also allowed me to say yes and to see opportunity. And I love that, that quote, because when you start saying yes and I call it daring now, everything I do is on a platform of daring. Daring is just my fun word about stepping out of your comfort zone, saying yes and no, but saying yes to trying something new. And you just don't know what you might discover when you say yes. You might actually discover, yeah, I really don't like that, so check that off your list.

Erin: Right, for me, the no is always really loud, really loud and really clear, like, not that. Nope, not that. Nope, not that. And sometimes all I'm getting is no from the universe, you know, sometimes all I'm getting is no and I have let the no carve the path of my life in a lot of ways because there's so much I don't want to do.

Jodi: And I know that now, so that's why I say it's either yes or no for people. I said I didn't want to do it, which led me to a series of saying a series of yeses. And some of the yeses I loved, and some of the yeses I didn't. But one of the yeses led me down this whole path of personal growth and development where I discovered that I have a voice and that I am not scared of the number one thing most other people are scared of, public speaking. I didn't know that.

I knew I was loud. I know I was outgoing. I mean, I've been very talkative my whole life. But public speaking? No. But saying yes to that one opportunity that came my way opened up a world that I didn't even know existed and open up opportunities that I never would have thought that I would ever say yes to. And in addition, Erin, when you start to say yes and no, fear and doubt and all the self talk come into play and, you know, that's how you learn the difference between your fear that, oh my God, I'm going to be hurt, and fear like, well, what if I fail? Well, I'm going to tell you something, right? In our 40s, 50s, and 60s, it's okay to fail because we know now not going to get hurt.

Erin: Well, and who cares, right?

Jodi: I don't.

Erin: Like, I just think the stakes are so different and, and you know, from my own experience and from so many interviews on this podcast, like, this is a phase of our lives where we know who we are, we know what moves us, we know what motivates us. And, you know, I think that the only thing that, that you're saying that people aren't already doing is cultivate an appetite for risk. A curiosity and an appetite for trying the new.

Jodi: And if you can do it while your kids are still home, even if it's, you know, obviously if your kids are younger, if they're still in elementary or middle school and I'm leaving high school out. Not that they don't need you in high school, but I truly believe that the empty nest starts showing itself in high school and specifically, you know, when they get their license, but we're not invited as moms into the classroom as often in high school. There's no room moms in high school, your kids don't necessarily want you around. But if you can start to get curious about what it is you like to do, what is it that you're currently doing that you really like and maybe could do more of, or what is it that you let go of in order to put your children first and foremost in your life that when you think about it, you know, it would be really cool to like, take a cooking class again. It would be really cool to get back to my art and my drawing. It'd be really cool to get back into a gym setting, whatever it might be for you. It doesn't have to be a career, right?

And if you can carve out that permission of time to start investigating, get curious about it while your children are home, the 'now what?' moment, it will still be 'now what?' it'll still be, oh my gosh, I can't believe they're gone and there is still the empty space and there's still all the emotions, and yet you'll have something to move towards, to focus on for yourself while they're gone.

Erin: Right, right. And I think, you know, the trick as to how to not get blindsided, you know, to anticipate the huge transition that that is, you know, you've given yourself and your mojo and your love and care and your every moment of attention to raising children. My twins are in eighth grade, and it is going to be real quiet when the two of them leave at the same time, you know, and so part of starting hotter than ever and cultivating what this business is going to be is about giving me a much bigger thing to do when they are not my primary concern. You know, I've always been someone who's balanced career ambition and motherhood, but going back to just career ambition will be very interesting.

Jodi: Yeah, no, it's true. It's true. And you know, it's not about ignoring or trying to bypass the emotions of the sadness and the loss. It's about what you said. It's about anticipating and being real--it's coming. I know it's coming. So what can I do now to maybe start a hobby to. And it could just be the research part of it and then you don't dive into it. You know, do I want a new career? Do I want to go back to school? I've always wanted to be a paralegal. I don't know, I'm throwing that out there, whatever it might be.

I know a woman in her 60s who left an established corporate career to go be a filmmaker. She had zero, zero experience, but she always wanted to make a film since she was a kid and now she's winning awards from her films, so everything is possible. Like we tell our children, Erin, as parents, would we ever tell our children, well, if you're scared, don't do it?

Erin: No, no.

Jodi: Do you really think, mom, that I could be a good engineer? Do you think you could be a good engineer? Well, what if I do it and I don't like it? Well, then you just learned something you don't like, and now you get to check that off the list and move on. So we have to talk to ourselves like we would talk to our children. Like, go for it. And I learned it. I watched my children, my children faced life fearlessly. And that's when I started to notice that I had all these fears that were so not real, you know? FEAR, are you familiar with the acronym?

Erin: Yes, tell the listeners.

Jodi: False Evidence Appearing Real. So much of our fear is just what we make up in our mind, and it keeps us paralyzed and it keeps us stuck. And, you know, I'll even throw this out to the moms who have kids at home. I have a friend who, her fear of saying yes to doing things with myself, when I built my community, my Mom's Who Dare community, I built for the moms to get together locally and when I invited her to a movie night, she said no, because she was worried, what if my daughter wants to come home and surprise me from school? And what if she comes home and she doesn't-- I don't think she has plans and she's coming home and she'll be alone for dinner. And I said, so what if? What if she's alone for dinner? Invite her to come to the movie and meet her afterwards for ice cream. Because here's the thing that I will tell all moms, if the phone rings and their friends call them and you canceled your plan, not because of an extenuating circumstance, just because you did. And their friend calls last minute and say, hey, we're around, you want to meet us? They're going to go meet them and you're going to tell them go meet them and then you're stuck at home. So there's a balance, you have to be able to say to your kids, you know what? Tuesday nights are my canasta night, right? So when they call and say, well, Tuesday night, say well, I can't really do it, and if it is Tuesday night, it has to be at 8 o' clock at night.

You're teaching them, we're always teaching our children. So you're teaching them, it's okay to have a boundary and put yourself at the top of your to do list. You don't have to tell them that's what you're teaching them, but they're going to see that because if we teach our kids that we abandon everything for ourselves, just for them, they're going to start doing that in their life as well.

Erin: I agree and when we talked before this conversation, you said, your kids are watching. Yeah, always your kids are watching. And it's so true. You know, we recently left LA to get out of the fire risk area and we luckily went to go stay at a friend's place near San Diego. And I just really felt the weight of being a single parent to two teenagers and dog owner and the self sacrifice. My job for them in that circumstance is to make them feel they're cared for, that I am leading confidently and also to keep my emotions regulated. To keep myself regulated.

Whatever it takes, six times walking the dog a day, taking edibles, whatever the fuck, like, whatever you have to do to keep yourself even, so that they can have whatever feelings they're having, they can have the space to feel whatever it is, but that you don't--it is such a, it's such an intense responsibility if you are mindful of what their experience is and also that everything you do is a model for what they learn is possible.

Jodi: Yeah, you know, I liken every stage of motherhood as you're just getting a little bit, you're taking a step back from the sideline, another step back from the sideline. So instead of being right at the edge of the soccer field, maybe you're a little bit back where the bleachers are and then so when they do leave home, you're, you're back, you're far back there on the field, but you're there, you're still on the field. You're still there and it's okay, they need to fly, they need to make their own decisions, they need to be equipped and, like you said Erin, it's our job to just be there.

We have to make a shift, the number one shift that we have to make as moms and dads and parents, but as moms, because we're talking to moms, is that of going from the fixer of all things to the coach slash advisor. It is a flip of a switch, we have to do it. We no longer can expect to jump in and fix everything, everything. You can, but if you want them to be able to feel confident and equipped to handle, like you said, like emergency situations, you have to guide them, coach them, advise them through conflict and challenges and obstacles. And I tell moms all the time, it's one of my, it's one of my talks when I'm called and talk to mom groups. We must, first and foremost, you must be willing and able to open and change from fixer to coach. I have a great resource for that if you ever wanted it, but it's important because it's normal to want to fix it.

And when your kids go off to college, Erin, and they're thousands of miles away and they call you and they say, you know, I'm really not liking my roommate mom. One of the top five, one of the top three conflicts they have in college is not liking their roommates. It's a real thing. And what are you going to do, say, hold on, I'm going to jump in my car and I'll be there tomorrow morning. No, you have to, you have to remain calm, right? You can't jump in and say, what are they doing to you and why they. You have to coach them through it. You have to coach them through it.

And they are, they're watching, they're watching you all the time. You know, they go through the very, a bit, very long, I would say a decade of me, me, me, where they have to be self focused. They're trying to figure out who they are, right? They're redefining who their friends are when they're away. They're trying to figure out what's my major, what's my career, what's my life going to look like. So it is very self absorbed, that decade of college and beyond. And you might not think they're paying attention, but they are and they're going to be proud of you. We talked about that too, Erin, that when they see you, they don't want to see you curled up in a fetal position crying and missing them all the time. That's a burden and that's a real burden, that's not fair to your children that they should worry that moment is not okay because I left home. Think about that.

Erin: No, it's so unfair. It's so unfair to put that on them. And when you want to just be like, go, little birdie, like, fly, you're ready for this.

Jodi: I cried. I grabbed my daughter's face at the drop off of college and I got choked up. And I said, you, you do you, you be great. I'm a phone call away, whatever you need, I'm here for you. And I cried on the way home.

Erin: Yeah, of course, because you're a human being and these are the people you care the most about in your life. I could cry right now.

Jodi: I didn't want to gloss over you said something a while ago about being of twins. It's, it's hard for the moms of twins. I've spoken to a lot of moms with twins because it's, it's, it's all at once. So I'm here for you.

Erin: Yeah, thank you, Jodi. We talk about it now, you know, about how, especially with my son, about how I'm like, can you believe that some guys show up at college and they've never done their own laundry and they don't know how to cook? Like, you know, like they can't feed themselves. Like, my son is like, I see my children wanting their independence and autonomy because they want it, because they're going to be in high school, all this stuff, but also because I want it for them, you know, and I expect it of them. They report to me what their issues are at school, and I say, do you want me to call the teacher? Do you want me to get involved? And usually the answer is no. And sometimes the answer is yes.

Like, my daughter got, she was in Seussical the Musical, which is not a great musical. My mother's review of it was, huh? Pretty amazing, pretty amazing. But she got given a terrible costume that made her feel bad. And so I was like, do you need me to reach out about that? And I did, she was like, yes, I do, because otherwise I'm gonna have to wear this awful thing. And they changed it and it was like, perfect, she tells me when to step in and when to stay out of it, you know?

Jodi: So, Erin, you just hit like, there's five questions that I came up with to help moms do what you did to go from the fixer to the coach. And the number one question is a permission question. Asking them, are you venting or am I weighing in on this? Do you want my opinion or do you not want my opinion? Do you need my help? Do you not need my help? Asking permission, because really, eight or nine times out of ten, mom's a safe space, and they come to vent to us because they can't vent to anybody for too long. Even their closest friends are fed up with the venting after a while, but mom is a safe space, and especially when they're starting out in a new environment. And so whether you can ask it at the beginning or at the end, when they're done, when they're finished with the rant, and you're like, so, am I weighing in here, or are you good? And it's powerful because it changes, you know, we're telling our children we've got you, and we know you've got you by asking that question instead of just diving in.

Because I ask people all the time, how many of the listeners out there right now can think of the person, whether it's your mom or a friend, because I have a friend that every time you share something, they're telling you what you should do, what you need to do. And I don't want to tell that person anything anymore, so instead, I love this person, instead, I always start my conversations, I have something to tell you and don't give me any advice. I'm good.

Erin: Yeah, yeah. I have people in my life who want to try to solve things for me, and I say to them, you know, please don't jump to solution. I don't need solution, I just need to be witnessed. I need to be heard, I need to empathy, I need to share this, get it off my chest. And if I want tactical input, I'll totally ask you for that. But I think, Jodi, this is a thing that I wasn't raised to know, that you could frame the way you listen to someone or what contribution you offer to them. And I think this is an incredible tool for any relationship, any close relationship, whether it's parenting, friendship, or romance, you know, to be able to say, sweetie, you know, what do you need from me?

Jodi: Absolutely. If I would venture to say, like, if my mom had said to me or engaged in a conversation that I really didn't want to talk about, I didn't feel I had the permission to say, I don't want to talk about it, ,mom. Like, what do you mean? I'm asking you you need to talk about it. And you know what, It is a real boundary and children, no matter how old, are allowed to say, I don't want to talk about it. Say, okay, well, when you're ready, I'm here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is something. You're allowed to set the parameters for the conversations that you want and desire to have.

Erin: Yeah, and the kind of contribution that you want from the person that you're talking to. I mean, I think that's how you build trust in a relationship, I think that's how you build accountability in a relationship and intimacy.

Jodi: I mean, yeah, it is getting back--your children subconsciously are like, wow, my mom trusts me, that I handle that, I can handle it. She's not telling me what to do, she's walking me through it and I want to be, you know, I get very cautious with, you know, the different types of personalities out there. There's black and white people. I have a son, he's very black and white, wo I have to be careful when I say, choose happy. I remember he said to me once, mom, you can't just choose happy, you can't just wake up in the morning, say, I'm going to be happy today. I'm like, you're only taking a piece of it, so, like, let's talk about it.

Erin: Right, don't be so literal.

Jodi: Right, so, you know, not fixing doesn't mean not offering anything. It's just asking them and letting them guide you in what, how much they need you to offer for them, them or to them.

Erin: Yeah, totally, totally. I think it's also, you know, modeling the kind of communication that is available to them is so important. And especially if you didn't grow up in a house where you had a voice. For me, everything was very black and white, but I was required to be independent, it wasn't an option.

Jodi, I wanted to ask you one thing that you said is, like, when we're talking about how you figure out what you want to do next, you said, think about how you want to feel in your next business, professional, whatever pursuit that you are taking on post-empty nest. And that struck me as such a non traditional, non patriarchal way to make decisions, and I would love to hear your insights on that.

Jodi: So I learned about year two into my personal growth journey that we have the left side of our brain and the right side. The left side is your logical thinking, the do, do, do action steps, goal oriented, this is what I want, this is how I'm going to get it. And the right side of your brain is your intuitive side, your creative side, your feeling side. And I learned early on about tapping into, okay, what do you want to do? What is something that you thought about doing? And then once you can name it--so you can do it two ways, that way, start with, you know, there's something you want to try. And then sit with that and say, I want to take an art class. I want to take a pottery class. And tap into, like, how are you feeling when you say that?

Where are you feeling your emotion when you talk about that thing you want to try and do? Do you feel a warmth in the heart? Do you feel nauseous in your stomach? Does your. Are you clenching your jaw? And then the reverse is what you asked. If you're really unsure about what it is you wanted to do, how do you want to feel in your life? And when I say, do you want to feel free? Do you want to feel flexible? Do you want to feel unburdened? Do you want to feel calm? Do you want to feel peacefulness? Do you want to feel excitement? Do you want that, like, get up and go feeling? And when you can determine how it is you want to feel, you can then say, well, what are some of the things that I used to do or that I'm currently doing or that I see somebody else doing, and how does that make me feel? So somebody could be listening--you could have an audience, I'm sure you have at least one, if not more, that are like, God, podcast host. Erin's really good, I love what Erin's doing, it looks like fun, it sounds like fun. I think I could do this, sit down and interview people. Where are you feeling that? Is it exciting to think about that? And you might say, scary, but scary in a good way?

Erin: Yes, scary is often good.

Jodi: Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking about doing something new this year that is so scary as all hell, but I'm like, it's a good scary, Like, I know I have to do it. So you can tap into your feeling from both ways, knowing you want to, thinking you want to try something and say it out loud, read it on a piece of paper, write it down, and notice where you're feeling it in your body and how you're feeling it. Because if you're clenching your jaw really tight, you might want to revisit that thing and then if you're unsure to start tapping in, look around your life. How do I want to live my life, is a different way of saying it. Like, I wanted to slow down. I wanted more flexibility, I wanted to feel flexibility in my life. So that's what I mean by tapping into, how do you want to feel? It's powerful, it's a practice, and don't be upset if you feel nothing. It's okay. Look, I'm going to share this, it worked during weight loss for me, the pandemic, I let myself go and I have struggling to get out of bed in the morning because I'm like, I didn't want to go in my closet because nothing fit.

And even my Lululemons were tight, Erin, that's a problem. But this time, because it's been over two and a half years and I've maintained my healthy. My healthy, I call it getting my healthy back, I said, you know, I'm going to get my healthy back. I'm going to forgive myself. I got through a pandemic and I'm going to get my healthy back. And what does that feel like? And I closed my eyes and I literally could feel myself smiling at the thought of, I'm going to get out of bed every morning and everything in my class is going to fit. And I could feel how that made me feel. So that's what I mean, if that helps, how to tap into your feelings.

Erin: Yeah, I think so. I think for me, like, what came up when you were saying, you know, how do you want to feel? I got this image of an orchestra conductor, you know, that I wanted to be a conductor of an orchestra, where I was sort of synchronizing all these beautiful voices to come together and make something bigger than all of us and gorgeous and, you know, but that leadership, creative leadership position is like, that's the thing that comes up for me, it just often comes up in metaphor.

Jodi: I was gonna say, I love that visual along with it. Yeah. If you. If you're a visual person, you can actually see yourself leading an orchestra and feel how that feels in your body, that's a double whammy. Because visualization is very powerful. I can sometimes I can see the picture and sometimes I can't, so don't beat yourself up if you don't see the picture. Find a picture and put it in front of you and then tap into feeling the picture triggers in you. When you look at that, that person leading the orchestra, how do you feel?

Erin: Right. I mean, I think there's this sense of mastery, there's a sense of precision, there's a sense of, like, emotion. And, yeah, I think for me, like, these insights come in flashes. And I like to talk about insight on this podcast because I think we as women tend to, like, override some of the intuitive stuff that is already there for us because we are following rules. We are living inside systems we didn't create, we are being good girls and doing all the things and checking all the boxes, and our intuition exists to give us critical information. And for some people, it's the way you really can make the most effective and organic decisions for your own life.

Jodi: Absolutely, you have to listen to yourself. You know, daring is all about daring to step out of your comfort zone, daring to take a pause and listen. You know, this last year, I had two opportunities presented to me, and I paused and I sat with them and I said no to both. But I wouldn't have done that over five years ago. I might have jumped. I would have jumped at at least one of them. And I'm like, yeah, no, it's not the right, one was not right at all. And one was just not the right time.

Erin: Yeah, but it's so scary because we want to have something as opposed to nothing. We want to have at least some kind of plan or something on the calendar, but sometimes those things become things you dread or things you resent because you've said yes to a thing that you intuitively know is not right.

Jodi: We have to get quiet enough to hear our voice. And you know what? Be careful who you listen to. Be careful who you share your dreams with, too, because people tend to project their own fears into your dreams, and it's not because they don't believe in you. It's because they're scared for you, because the feeling of getting on a stage and publicly speaking completely freaks them out, makes them want to crawl under the table. So I had to be careful who I told that I wanted to be a public speaker to. I had to be careful who I told, I wanted to start a podcast because I have my own podcast. So be careful who you share your dreams with. Share with yourself and get really quiet and listen. Our intuition does speak to us, it screams at us if we really let it listen.

Erin: Yeah, for sure. It's interesting, I have two types of people in my life. One type of person will take a survey on anything they're about to do or any situation they're in they will, like, they will do a focus group, basically, of the people in their lives and get everybody's opinion and then use that to inform what they do. I am, like, pathologically the opposite. I do not need anybody else's input. I have sounding board people, but, you know, with the fires, like, people were staying put. I was like, nope, not staying put, don't feel comfortable, feel stressed out, this sucks, I'm scared. Like, let's go, let's go, even though no one's saying go. Like, I just, I have always had a very loud, decisive voice in my head, for better or for worse.

Jodi: No, it's good, it's always for the better. But it's because when you start listening, you can discern between your ego voice and your intuition. And the ego voice, meaning the fear and the doubt and the false evidence appearing real fearful. It's harder when other people do it because we don't ask for clarification questions. We're like, well, why do you think speaking is a bad thing? Why do you think leaving is a bad thing? And then you can uncover their fear around it, and you realize it has nothing to do with, they don't do it because they're mean. The people who love us don't tell us not to do something because they don't care. We all have stuff, we all have stuff. And our stuff gets in a way sometimes of giving the best advice we can give.

Erin: Yeah, and advice is just advice. You know, event if it comes from your mom or your boss or your best friend.

Jodi: But it also goes to motherhood. Everybody moms differently. Everybody stop judging moms, just be there. You know, I have a community, Moms Who Dare and there are 2,500 different moms in that group, and I tell everybody, somebody might post something, and do not comment if it's not holding empathy and kindness for them, because you might think, why are they upset about that? No, that's judgment, everybody moms differently. Everybody gets upset about different things. Everybody has different value systems, so just hold space, be kind and help her move through it.

Erin: Yeah, I think that's so important in community. I want to talk about loneliness. It's something I think about a lot, and I think it's something that's really deeply going on in our country, is a lot of people feel really isolated and alone. And that moment, whether you're married or a single parent or, you know, never were married or whatever, like when your kids leave home and like, who knows, they, if they won't be back, like they'll probably be, they're coming back economy and all the stuff. But like for that time being, when you're like, okay, I have to figure out how to live my life without their day to day concerns being the thing that I'm managing all the time, how do you reposition that feeling of loneliness as an opportunity?

Jodi: That's a great question, I love that question. My number one go to that helped me was the first thing I did was, was create a new normal in my house for myself. So obviously I had to do it twice, my daughter left first and then I was left with my son. And when you're, when a big personality leaves, when one leaves, the dynamics change. So I was missing my daughter, you know, and she, she would sit and go have manicures with me. She was the one who would sit at the dinner table for an hour and talk. My son wasn't going to sit at the dinner table for an hour and talk and I was missing it, I was missing that. That's a very important thing for me is to have dinner.

So recreate a new normal, whether it's for yourself alone. I'm going to give you the two things you can do. If you still have a child or children at home, get with that child or children and say, all right, Ellie's gone, how do you want to reimagine dinner? Let's reimagine dinner hour. And Dan and I reimagined dinner hour because if we sat at the table, it was going to be over in five minutes because I don't know who eats corn quicker, him or her. And so we reimagined it. We picked a show. We set up our, our coffee tables and we watched a series together and ate. And somebody said to me, but you're not talking? I said, we're there in the room. And then, you know, after the show we would talk for like five minutes about the show and then maybe he would throw something in about his day or I would ask him a question. So get with the people who are left and say, how can we reimagine dinner hour? I want to do something different, let's shake things up. I'm using dinner hour as a suggestion.

Erin: That's really nice, yeah.

Jodi: And then if you are alone and your last child is gone, or in your case, everyone, both leave, still shake up your routine. You no longer have to be home from the hours if you cook. I was a cooker from 3 to 5 to get dinner ready on the table so that we could all have dinner together. So maybe run errands or call your bestie and start a walking thing a couple days a week just to shake up your---

Erin: Or go to pilates at that time or whatever.

Jodi: You've always want to try Pilates, but do it at the time that you know, like I used to, you know, we cram everything in in the morning moms. Well now you can do it in that late afternoon when everybody's closing up at work and coming home, you can go out and do something. And then the third suggestion for either of that for yourself and all of this for you, but this is for you. And I'm going to go to daring, so I have five dares that I talk about that can improve your mood, your overall well being and other people's as well.

Get out of the house and just smile at everybody you see. Start in the house, smile at yourself in the mirror, smile when you're making your breakfast, smile when you're on the phone, smile when you're talking to Erin. And when you leave the house, smile, start smiling. And here's why, and there's a lot of research on it, smile fosters connection, which we need if we're feeling lonely. It's contagious. When you smile at someone, very few people can't resist smiling back. And now you feel connected. I've actually dove into conversations with somebody said, why are you smiling so much? I'm like, well, I don't know, we're talking now. So smile at everybody, go to the deli counter, make eye contact and smile. You will feel more connected in your community, you will improve somebody else's day, which boomerangs back to you.

Erin: So do you remember on Seinfeld when George Costanza decided he needed to smile more?

Jodi: Oh, I don't remember that one.

Erin: There's a Seinfeld episode more than what about it? Yeah, yeah.

Jodi: So change change up your routine, do something, create a new normal, test it out, all different things and then smile. Spend days, sit in your car at a red light, turn around, smile. I've had people look at me like, like they walk away because we got so used to not making eye contact. And part of loneliness, a good place to start is to just create a connection, even if it's for that 30 seconds, it boosts your, it releases really good, you know, feel happy hormones in your brain and then you'll see how you feel.

Erin: Yeah, yeah, that's wonderful. I love that as a starting place, you know, for, for change, for growth. You know, one thing I know about women is that we're always evolving. We're always growing and changing. Our bodies are cyclical. You know, the way that, the way that the cycle of our lives work is cyclical and I think the more we can get ahead of the potential pitfalls of this chapter and look to build some opportunities for ourselves, I think the happier and more empowered we will feel.

Jodi: Absolutely.

Erin: I just want to ask you one more question, Jodi, which is, you know, what do you want our listeners to take away about this empty nest phase and what is possible if we reframe our thinking about this chapter?

Jodi: You're going to be okay. Number one, you're going to be okay. This is what you've been working towards, raising your children to go out in the world, brave new experiences and meet new people. And you can do the same thing. I want you to know that it's important for you to dare on your own path of braving new experiences and meeting new people and discovering who you get to be. You're going to be okay. And say yes. Say yes to something new and different. The next time your girlfriend calls and said we'll have a girls night out tonight, say yes, even though you're used to being in bed at 7 o' clock at night, say yes. Go to a movie by yourself. Say yes to you. Pamper yourself, start getting a massage every week if you can, but say yes. But you're going to be okay.

Erin: I love it, Jodi, thank you so much for coming on the show. Really appreciate it.

Jodi: Oh, I loved our conversation. Erin, thank you.

Erin: Thanks for listening to Hotter Than Ever. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Jodi Silverman about getting ready to launch your kids into the adult world and what impact that will have on your life and how you can set yourself up for success in this next chapter. Isn't there always just a next fucking chapter? God, if we're lucky, there is a next chapter. The next chapter for our kids, a next chapter for our personal lives, our emotional lives, our professional lives. How do you want to live it? What do you want to do next? Please share this episode with the people in your lives who also need to hear about how critical it is to center themselves in the story of their lives. Even if our identity today is all wrapped up primarily in caring for others, we will always care for others, but if we don't put ourselves first and our kids leave the house and everything has been all about them, what happens to you?

It's so good to think about this stuff and it's so good to take care of yourself by having these conversations with other people, with the people that you care about in your life who are also going through it. And that's what I have to say about that.

Hotter Than Ever is produced by Erica Gerard and Podkit Productions. Our associate producer is Melody Carey. Music is by Chris Keating with vocals by Issa Fernandez.

Go out there and do something that makes you feel joy this next couple of weeks until the next episode drops when you inevitably feel joy that it showed up again in your podcast queue. Am I weaving myself into the fabric of your lives? Gosh, I hope so, I hope so, and I hope I'm doing it in a way that means something to you because you mean so much to me.