Radical Self Love and the Power of Sisterhood with Natty Frasca

Erin: Welcome to Hotter Than Ever, where we uncover the unconscious rules we've been following. We break those rules and we find a new path to being freer, happier, sexier, and more satisfied in the second half of our lives. I'm your host, Erin Keating.

Welcome, new listeners. Welcome back, loyal listeners. Haven't we been having fun here on Hotter Than Ever? Today's episode is no different. I've been thinking a lot about women and relationships between women and friendships and how we support each other. And, you know, part of that is related to Broad Collective, which is the new network for professional women pivoting to self employment in midlife that I am starting, which my partner Sarah, starting in January and we're really, really excited about that launch coming up. You'll hear more about that. But I've also been thinking about it with regard to my personal life and how important my friendships with women are. I'm so, so grateful for my closest college girlfriends who have known me, and I have known them through the twisting, winding path of the last 30 years. The people that have stayed in my life, who I have stayed semi regular touch with, who I went to high school with, who knew me since I was my kid's age. That's pretty cosmic. Thinking about the incredible women I've gotten the chance to know through Hotter Than Ever and how their expertise and their thinking and their points of view have opened my mind and my eyes to new ways of looking at the world and also how some of whom have become dear, dear friends.

I'm thinking about how every job you have, every big experience, you kind of take one friend with you into the next chapter of your life. And then when you look around at the assembled group of women in your life, you go, oh, my God, they really know me. Assembled together, they paint this jigsaw puzzle of me and all of these experiences, and I do the same for them. And if you're lucky, you've had some people in your life who can hold a mirror up to you and who can see your patterns and who can remind you of where you've been and who you've become and you can do that for them. You know, I am a woman who has always loved women and wished I was a lesbian, but I tried that in college and it didn't really work out for me, God damn it. There's no escape from heterosexuality in my life.

But I am a woman who has always made friends with other women really easily. I'm also a person who fundamentally always kind of feels alone in the world because of the way I was raised and the sort of pathological self reliance that was baked into me as a kid and the amount of unwitnessed time I spent in my childhood, at least that's what my therapist says anyway. I'm working on it, I'm working on it. I'm working on becoming more conscious and asking for help and remembering that I am not alone and reaching out and staying connected. And sometimes I have a hard time even remembering that there are all of these incredible women in my life. But there they are and there they have been. And more women have come into my world who have enriched my life in the last couple of years. I'm just so grateful.

I guess that's what Thanksgiving is about, right? It's that feeling of gratitude that remembering what you have and I hope for you, your Thanksgiving was rich and connected and that you got to spend time with the people you really love and that there wasn't too much family drama or stuff you had to suck up at the dinner table. I spent the week with my kids and my mom who is 82 who flew out to LA to spend spend time with us. And I just feel so grateful that I have this incredible 82 year old mom who can just flit across the country and spend a few days with us just hanging out and being together and playing cards and cooking. And I used it as an excuse to make my kids go to a museum because Nana's here, you have to do what she wants. And we've all been having a really, really good connected time. I'm so lucky that she's so well and I also feel lucky that she modeled this idea of women in community with each other for me.

When I was growing up she worked for women's organizations and she always had a lot of close female friends and she was a single mom. She was out there. She was not very focused on dating, she was really focused on on her community and her work. She was really trying hard to live the kind of life that she wanted to live. A self determined life, independent, socially conscious, creative, adventurous and fun. I am so grateful to have watched her live her life with women at the center, her sisters, her friends. And it just made such an enormous impact on me. And I am just really experiencing a lot of gratitude for the women in my life. My mom, my business partner in Broad Collective, Sarah, my friends.

And so when I met Natty Frasca, who is my guest on the show today, I just really recognized a kindred spirit. I resonated with her energy and what she was putting out online and we both sort of separately reached out to each other on Instagram and just to say, like, hey, I see you and I love what you're doing. That's one of the magical things about social media is it makes it so easy to be in direct contact with people. And I feel really lucky that I had her for about an hour to talk to her about the work she does. Natty is a pleasure coach, of course, it all comes back to pleasure for me. She's a rebel rouser and she's the founder of the feminine rebellion. She helps high achieving women over 40 unbind from burnout and good girl conditioning.

Is this sounding familiar? So that they can reclaim their confidence, sensuality, and power. Amen, sister. Her work blends neuroscience, somatics, and radical pleasure to ignite a woman's second act into her best one yet. In this conversation, Natty talks about midlife as an ignition point, which is like a portal to gain agency and to abandon the patriarchal path and actually choose a life that's defined by joy and fun and power and the sense that anything is, according to Natty, fucking possible. She talks a lot about pleasure as a neurobiological power source, not a reward, not the calgon, take me away, little dove candy at the end of the night. No, this is not about consumerism or escapist behavior, but about pleasure releasing empowering neurotransmitters, leading to clearer thinking, greater confidence, and a strong inner yes, that can guide your life choices.

She talks a lot about choice and agency and how we can frame things in such a way that they can feel empowering and actually become empowering. Radical self love, internal validation, these are things we talk about today. These are my favorite favorites subjects. And we also talk about the transformative power of community and sisterhood. I think you're really going to enjoy this one. It's a real rah, rah, go girl conversation. And you should probably share this one with a friend or friends who need a strong dose of empowerment and sisterly love. All right, let's get hot.

Natty Frasca, welcome to Hotter Than Ever.

Natty: Erin, it is my absolute pleasure to be in this space with you. And when I say pleasure, like, you know I mean it.

Erin: I know you mean it, I know you mean it. You know, when I first saw you on Instagram, I did a double take because I was like, wait, your message is so in line with everything I've been talking about here on this podcast for the last 120+ episodes. I saw you, and I thought, oh, my God, I love her. She's so cool, we need to be friends. I don't usually dork out that hard, but I just, I think you're so cool. And I'm so excited to get into this conversation, you know?

Natty: Me too. And I have to say, I felt the same thing. I was, like, Hotter Than Ever, what? Fuck yes, who is this woman? Let me add her. Like, this is the beginning of something really fucking good.

Erin: Yeah. So, so good. And, you know, so much of the messaging for women over 40 is about how hard things are are. And when I saw you, I saw that you were rejecting that narrative in favor of a celebration of joy and fun and power and agency. And I am so here for that.

Natty: Me too. Erin we've been sold this narrative that, like, you know, midlife is the beginning of our decline. It's where we fade. It's where things get really hard, where hormones are a mess and like there's so much of that in the water and all over social media. And I'm not discounting the fact that, like, that is some real, believe me. Like, last night, you know, I had the AC way down. I'm like kind of, you know, sleeping naked. Like, you know, I'm definitely going through some kind of hormonal changes, and this is the best time of my life. And this is an incredible opportunity for women. Like, to me, midlife is a portal. It is an ignition point where we get to say, enough.

Erin: Yeah, Enough of what? Enough what?

Natty: Enough of people pleasing, enough of perfection, enough of, like, over giving, enough of the performance, all of it. Like, can I swear here?

Erin: You must swear. It's like, you're obligated.

Natty: Like, fuck all of that, like, you know, I am approaching my 50th birthday. You know, I am like, I have walked through so many fires and so many women have by this point in our lives.

Erin: I think we all have, I don't know, one woman who's approaching 50 who has not been through the shit.

Natty: Who has not been through the shit. Whether it's, you know, in a relationship, whether it's raising, you know, raising her kids, kids with mental illness, kids who were sick Just having normal kids.

Erin: Career challenges, career success. That's still the shit when you're a working woman of our age. Like, nothing's an easy path for us, I don't think.

Natty: Right, so we have learned these lessons and what I have recognized is that by the time a woman, I'm going to say it's really a mid-40s point where we've leveled up in our careers, right? We've done everything the right way, the traditional way. We walk the traditional path. I call it the patriarchal path.

Erin: Right, right. Totally. What was it for you, Natty? What was your professional life before you started this chapter?

Natty: So I was in advertising for years and then this is funny, I quit to help start a non profit because I wanted to slow down. But it turns out you bring yourself wherever you go, right? So I brought all of my, you know, perfectionism, you know, all of it to this non profit role when I thought I was slowing down and gonna spend more time with kids and have a chiller life, know. And then it was around my 40s where I was depressed. I would lay in bed at night and think, I have everything I thought I ever wanted. I have enough money. I had two homes, I had three healthy kids, I had been in a marriage for 14 years, I had a career.

Erin: You had it all. You had it all like we're supposed to, like we were told that we could.

Natty: Yes, so I had it all. So why wasn't I happy? Why was I popping Xanax like they were candy? Why was I on anti anxiety and antidepressants? Why was I laying in bed with a glass of chardonnay, like I'm one more sip before I go to bed? And the thing is, everyone around me was doing the same thing, so it seemed normal, but I was like, there's something wrong here. Like I feel guilty for wanting more or wanting something different. I don't even know what that different is. But it's not this.

Erin: Right, right. And Chardonnay is not gonna fix what this is. TThis is a reckoning, you know, this is a reckoning that happens for a lot of us in midlife where we go. And it's interesting, I'm curious about the catalyst for actually making a radical change. Because for me, I had to almost die. I had to almost die of COVID and be in the hospital and have everything be really quiet and go, huh? The biggest bouquet of flowers is from my work. Huh. My husband, now ex husband, is picking a fight with me because he's too stressed having the kids for a couple of days while I recover. Like it was a couple of things coming to a head where I was like, fuck this shit. I am not doing this anymore. And I think it takes illness and, you know, a brush with mortality a lot of the time for women to get off that good girl path and stop doing everything right and start listening to what it is that their heart, their mind, and their body is telling them about how they feel about this life that they've created for themselves.

Natty: Oh, my God. I actually have chills right now because, like, you, you're so right. It very often takes, like, this moment of reckoning. And for me, actually, it was in couples counseling. So my my husband and I have been couples counseling for, like, six or seven years and it was like, every time we went in, it was like, oh, we would just, like, rehearse, you know, we'd go over that week's fight, you know. And I was like, you know what, fuck this. The next time we went into couples counseling, I said, okay, I want a divorce, I'm done.

And at this point, I had done my research, and I had already engaged with a divorce lawyer. So I was just like, I'm not fucking around. Like, when I make a decision, I'm like, I'm out. So my therapist said, okay, what do you want? And I was like, okay, I want a condo in the center of town. I want someone to mow my lawn. I want, like, part time child care, you know? And he was like, okay, wait, let me rephrase the question, Natty. How do you want to feel? And it just stumped me. I was like, what the fuck do you even mean, how do I want to feel? So I was raised, you know, in an Italian American family, the youngest of three kids, the only girl. I am a fucking hustler. I am a doer. I'm like, if there's a blue ribbon or a trophy, get me at it. I'm gonna win it.

When he asked me that question, I said nothing. It felt like I said nothing for five minutes. But I closed my eyes. And what I saw for how I wanted to feel was myself at the stovetop, stirring my grandmother's ragu. I have a glass of red wine next to me, or my husband places a glass of red wine next to me. My Jerry Garcia is on the radio. My kids are, like, dancing wildly in the kitchen to some awesome Jerry song. And my husband, the bonus of all of this is that my husband comes up behind me in this vision, and he rests his beard on my neck and he kisses my neck and he wraps his arms around my waist and he, like, places that glass of wine there. And I remember what came out of me was just like in between snarfy tears was like, I want to feel seen. I want to feel adored. I want to feel loved. I want to feel like a fucking princess. I want to feel like I'm number one on your list. I want to feel like you would do anything to please me.

All of that came barfing out of my mouth. And then I had so much shame for saying that, because as kind of a feminist and like this hard working, kick ass woman, saying that I wanted to be seen, held, adored, revered was embarrassing to me and my husband, you know, we had two chairs that were like this, he like, turned our chairs towards each other and he was like, I would fucking love that. I would love to give that to you, please let me.

Erin: I'm gonna cry because this story doesn't end with you guys splitting up.

Natty: No, we just hit 23 years. So, you know, I think I had to get really fucking clear about what I wanted. And it was like, that was that moment where I was like, I wanted to burn it all down so badly. I was like, I just need to start over. I need a fucking refresh button. Like, new game, you know? And he was like, let's just like, please let me try. And so I just said, okay, fine, we're redesigning everything from the ground up. And I got. I started saying exactly what I wanted. Like, I got really, like, I got really fucking clear. I stopped doing everything for everyone. I put myself first. I literally had the most selfish year of my life in a the most beautiful way.

Erin: Like, what did it look like?

Natty: Yeah, it looked like me saying no to every single dinner engagement that I ever felt obligated to go to. Because I didn't want to. I don't even like these people. Like, why am I doing this? It meant saying, you know, no to my board of directors at work when I thought they were suggesting something I didn't want to do. I ended up leaving that job. It meant, you know, a lot of exploring my body on my own. You know, a lot of touching myself, feeling, trying to explore what I wanted to feel like in bed. A lot of masturbation.

Erin: You know, everyone who listens to the show knows I'm very pro-masturbation. You start with yourself. If you don't know what feels good for you, how can you tell a partner what feels good for you?

Natty: Exactly. So I realized that like, well, no wonder I've been kind of avoiding sex with my husband because I'm not really getting what I want, you know, it's all happening too fast. It's all, you know, it's all about completion, you know. So I really just said, you know, I'm gonna focus on my own sexual self care and like at some point I will welcome you in. But like we're gonna spend this time- I'm spending this time. You do what you need to do, no shame, and I'm going to do what I need to do. And then let's kind of come back and find each other and I'm going to show you what I like.

Erin: What I hear in this story is that you had been lying a lot in your life. And I think that's how we all get by, is that we somehow convince ourselves that everything we're taking on that is too much, that is unfair, that is, that doesn't feel good, but we sublimate it because we've built this thing, we've built this life, we've built this quote, unquote, success. It looks good from the outside. Like, you know, there's a high cost to telling the truth when you've built this structure all around yourself and told the world it's what you know, it's what you want because it's what the world told you to want, right?

Natty: And what everyone else is doing.

Erin: Right. And like how much power, pleasure, agency, empowerment is there in saying, I don't wanna, or this, I'm not doing this anymore, or, and let the cards fall where they may or the chips or whatever they are in this metaphor. Let's let, you know, let the thing burn around me if that's what has to happen, because I deserve to live a life where I feel good in my body, I feel good in my relationships, I feel good in my career, I feel good in how I parent, I feel good in my friendships, how I spend my time. Like, this is the point, this is the point of life. But it gets very lost for us when we are following the script.

Natty: Yes, it gets very, very, very lost. And not to be like kind of too harsh, but we have a fucking choice. We have a choice. It can feel like a hard choice to make when the cultural narrative is you know, not congruent with what we want, but we have a choice on how we want to live our lives. And by the time you're 50 years old, like, when are you gonna make the choice for yourself? It's like, basically it's like now or fucking never, girl.

Erin: It's such a gorgeous, organic, kind of clean midway point, you know, where you go. I mean, everything happened for me. Like I got sick with COVID I, you know, I started to sort of question my marriage. I got laid off from my big, fancy corporate job, you know, that made me look a certain way in the world. All in my 50th year, I turned 50 and all of that happened. And I don't think that's a coincidence. I think it's a bellwether. I think it's a that number is big and clean. And I took it as a, I don't know, as an opportunity to wake up from the choices that I had unconsciously made and start to make choices that are active and, you know, empowered.

And I have to say, I wish I didn't have to blow up the marriage. I wish I could have told the truth in couples therapy and been received in the way that you were received. And I'm really happy for you that it went that way. I'm a proponent of divorce when the time is right and it's unfixable. But, you know, gosh, it's really nice to be able to stay, you know, in that relationship with the father of your children and, and go on the journey with someone else. That's amazing.

Natty: It is amazing. And I'm not a sunshine and rainbows and glittery person. It's not like, you know, even I have girls who are 20 and 21. I'm like, you know what? I love your dad, he's a cool guy. We're friends, we have a good time together. I'm not sure I believe in the institution of marriage. And like, I have to be honest about that, of course, because, like, I'm in it, but I can't actually. I'm not sure. I'm just not sure about being committed to the same person for decades. I'm an open minded woman and I happen to be where I am and I do love my husband and I do love my life. But, you know, sometimes I'm like, huh, you know, I see my women that a lot of women are, I coach, are divorced. I have a lot of very, very good friends, my closest friends, most of them are divorced and living their best lives.

Erin: I know I am. I know am. And I trust myself. I trust myself to make the right decisions for me, for my children, for my life around my, my money, my relationships, my, my career, my parenting. I trust myself and I have the freedom to make decisions without consulting somebody else, which is like the greatest thing, because I just, I'm the boss, and that's how it goes. And I always was the boss, I just had to like, deal with interference all the time and pretend and kowtow to this notion of, you know, a marital partnership that was never equal. Like, you know, I tried, I tried. We tried, you know, but I ran everything. And it is what happens with high achieving women, especially women our age where we, we were raised to believe we could do anything and then we did anything and everything. And, you know, it's been tough for our male peers to keep up with us.

Natty: Amen.

Erin: And also we have taken on too much because we've absorbed all the lessons of what it is to be a woman from the patriarchy and the lessons of feminism. And so we're like, yes, battle zone between these two concepts. For me now I can do what I want. I can fuck who I want. I can be in a relationship or not be in a relationship. I can chase my own pleasure, my own kinks. I can chase my own entrepreneurial nature that I've sort of repressed for a long time. Like, and I'm out on a limb and I'm out on a limb. I am not in a safe place and I am alive. Like, I have, I have plenty of resources. I'm going to be totally okay. But it's not the same as being a married corporate woman. That's what I was, I am no longer that.

Natty: Yes, yes. So now you have both. There's like the risk and the reward, right?

Erin: Yeah. Instead of living in this little, like compressed, like tight stress ball, I'm a little looser, I'm a little freer. I'm a lot more fun.

Natty: Let's be honest, like, marriage is made up. It's a made up concept.

Erin: Like everything.

Natty: Yeah, right., like everything. It's all fucking made up. So, you know, there's no ideal relationship. But what I am seeing in my world is that women divorced--most divorced women in my world, and I hang out with cool women, but they're thriving. I mean, it's not that there aren't moments where they wished for something maybe a little bit different. And me, too.

Erin: Oh, yeah. I mean, I wish I wasn't, you know, 90% responsible for the kids. I wish I had an ex who could co-parent with me in a different way. I wish I had, you know, a different kind of financial settlement around my divorce. I wish, I wish, I wish, I wish, I wish. There's a lot of things I wish. But would I go back? Would I trade it? Do I regret it? Do I know any woman who has gotten divorced who regrets it?

Natty: I know.

Erin: No, I don't. I'm sorry.

Natty: I don't know one. I mean, even the ones that I work with who, you know, the divorce happened because, you know, he cheated or something, you know. So, but even after that rupture, which is very painful. When I see them after, like, you know, we're 12 months after, 18 months after, they're like 'thank you'.

Erin: Yeah. Well, because you can take something, a rupture as a catalyst. Or you can take it as a sign, you know, that things need to be repaired or an opportunity to go inward in, back into the relationship. You could take it a lot of different ways, depending on what the DNA of the dynamic is. But sometimes it's a gift where you go, oh, okay is this the window I get to fly through?

Natty: Yeah, exactly.

Erin: You know, because there was no good excuse before.

Natty: Yes, yes, you said it. You said it

Erin: Like, I'm just generally miserable and carrying all of the load is not enough of a reason for a lot of women. And I think listeners to this podcast, there are women who are in relationships that are unhappy that they will never leave.

Natty: Well, yes, and that's okay, but this is why this podcast is so important. And this is why, like, you know, women need each other and more women need to be telling the fucking truth about their lives and, like, getting real and raw and, like, banding together. This is where, like, sisterhood helps because, you know, if you see another woman who's post divorce, that's like, thriving post rupture, like, you're like, huh, wait a second, she looks fine, maybe I could do that.

Erin: Totally, and I gotta tell you, the amount of people in my life who have come out of the woodwork to talk to me about their marriages, about their career changes, about their sexuality, about their bodies, about, you know. And people like you are creating these open spaces for us to be honest about what is so for us. And also to imagine what we might actually want out of this one and only fucking life we get, you know.

Natty: Exactly. This one precious, wild life. Like, this is it. This is it. And we get to do almost whatever the fuck we want.

Erin: Yeah, and like, not ignoring, like, responsibilities and, you know, I still have teenagers at home. You have one at home and two in college. Like, you know, we're building new businesses. We've got, you know, we've got this career transition that we made. We're living into that. We're trying to figure out how to have a podcast be successful, how to have a coaching business be successful, you know, but--

Natty: But it's so worth it because we have the, you know, we have the vision. We have the vision for what's possible. And, like, I'm willing to walk through the fire. I'm willing to get scrappy. I'm willing to do the work, I'm willing to get uncomfortable if I know I'm moving towards something that's going to feel really ducking fun.

Erin: Well, and that you made and that you own. And I think, like, you know, we work for so many years as this Gen X cohort, right? We have worked for so many years to win at a game we didn't create. So professionally, you know, I was very successful. You were very successful. We achieved, we got the gold stars. You know, eventually, in the last, like, five years of it, I got paid well, the rest of the time I did not. And then you go, oh, okay, they let me run it, but they're never going to let me own it. They're never going to let me in the boardroom. And I don't even want to be in that boardroom. And I don't even like what that model is. And I don't like this sort of military hierarchy that I'm living in.

Natty: And this, you realize, like, you're looking around, it's like, what's his face in the Matrix?

Erin: Neo.

Natty: Right, he's like, wait, Neo in the Matrix? Like, wait, this is all made up?

Erin: And you made it up to be like this. This sucks.

Natty: This does suck. This is why we need more women in power, because we'd make it way better.

Erin: We would. Well, and we would care about each other. We would bring empathy to the conversation, which is what I think is deeply missing, you know?

Natty: Yes, everywhere.

Erin: Everywhere, everywhere. And it's a real crisis right now in this country. And it's interesting to see women stepping up and running for office and speaking out. And I think we will see more and more of that as more of us have our estrogen drop and we stop giving a fuck what people think and we start chasing our own. We start chasing our own desires and goals and meaning.

Talk to me a little bit about when women come to you for coaching, their private coaching or group coaching, because I know you do both, and I love both of those things. I always, I always find myself sitting in a circle of women. Even though I'm like, I'm too cool to sit in a circle of women, I'm always in a circle of women. I will always be in a circle of women, sharing my feelings and just how it goes. And so when women come to you, what brings them to you? What are the things that they're experiencing that makes them say fuck I need, you know, I need Natty to help me through this?

Natty: Yeah, a couple different things, but, you know, I can speak specifically to a client, I just got off the phone call, phone call with her. You know, high achieving doctor, head of her group at a local hospital in Boston, so, like, total fucking badass. Two grown kids, has done everything for everyone for decades. And I think she'd been following me for a while, but she realized that, like, she had lost her fucking mojo. You know, she just felt numb. Like, she looked around and she's like, I'm high achieving, there are literally no more boxes for me to fucking check like, like, I have outdone the system. I've achieved so fucking much. So, like, why aren't I happy?

Erin: Oh, isn't that interesting? Because it's not set up for her to be happy.

Natty: No. So, you know, she told me this really funny story. You know, she was walking through work yesterday and someone stopped her and said, you know, oh, my God, like, you look so good. Look at you with, like, your silk shirt, skirt, and your, like, cute cami and your oversized blazer. Like, what happened to you? And she was like fucking everything. I just like, decided it was time to fucking bring it. And she's reconnected with her body, reconnected with her desires. She's now the founder of a brand new, you know, company that she has investors lining up for.

So, like, a creative project that she's been sitting on for a decade that she's finally doing. So I think it's different for every woman, the exact particular moment. But I think, you know, for many of us, it's like you wake up one morning and you think, wait, is this it? Is this it? Like, I'm managing, like, not only my immediate family dynamics, but, like, extended family dynamics. How did I get to the point where I'm like, kind of micromanaging and making sure everyone in my life is okay? I've completely forgotten about myself.

Erin: Right, I used to say that I was just like, a head. Like, I was so disconnected from my physical self, from, you know, where all your feelings live. From my gut, from all of it, because I was just a head. I was high functioning, I was getting it done. I was solving the problems. I was there, this and that. But I was like, you know, out of shape, hadn't had sex in a decade, like, was just totally not known to myself in myself.

Natty: And where's the joy?

Erin: There's fun. Where's joy? Where's laughter? Like, all I want to do now is just be a rebellious teenager and like, yes, like, have sex and smoke weed. You know, say the fuck man, like, and do that in the most possible, responsible, working mom kind of way that I can, you know? but what can I get away with now, right?

Natty: Like, why not? Why not? It's like, I truly believe that the happier and more pleasure filled and joyful and alive that we feel, the more love and justice we push into the world. So, you know, and this mad world needs more love and justice, right?

Erin: Why do you say justice?

Natty: Oh, I think about trans rights. I think about, you know, human trafficking. I think about just the things that are not even happening in our country, but worldwide, that when women feel good, we do better work in the world. When women make more money, we give more money. I mean, are you kidding me? I'm like, I make money and I'm just like, okay, you know, the food pantry on the corner, you're getting a thousand bucks. You know, the women's lunch place, the, you know, I'm donating to, you know, give, you know, women clothes to go on interviews.

Erin: And also, like, you get to hire your friends who are really talented. Like, you know, and you get to, you get to collaborate and work with people that you know, that you want to empower their lives and their businesses. Not even just charity, but business.

Natty: Yeah, happy women, happy women, joyful women, grounded women, powerful women, confident as fuck women do amazing things in this world. So when I say love and justice, I mean just like everything. Making the world just, making the world fair.

Erin: Yeah, and I do think that that is a part of the, the perimenopause and menopausal journey, where we start to look at our lives and the way we're using our time and energy and resources. And there's this, you know, this like, cutesy, pootsy, whatever, no fucks left to give. It's like, yeah, okay, that's definitely true, but everyone I know at this point in our lives, and I've obviously talked to, you know, over a hundred women on this podcast who are focused on this, this phase. You know, everyone is like, what do I care about? What is important to me?

Natty: Where are my values?

Erin: What work do I need to do? How do I invest the decisions that I make with meaning?

Natty: It's purpose. What is the purpose of being here on this planet at this moment in time? What is the impact I want to make right in the world? Oh, more shivers. It's interesting. Like, I have a client in New York who's, I funnily also a physician, but she is starting, you know, she has this family who is in Scotland and there was this many years ago, kids were sold from Scotland to Canada to work on farms.

Erin: Okay, I did not know that.

Natty: And so like, she learned about this, doing some family history, whatever. Anyway, so she's a doctor, but she's also writing a fucking screenplay because she needs this story to be out in the world. So she's like written a screenplay and she's looking for producers.

Erin: Talk to me after the show. Yeah, okay. Yes, amazing

Natty: Oh my God, this is amazing. See what this, what happens when women hang out? Look, you're like, let's talk, I can help you for her. Yeah, this is what's happening right here. Like, we are, we are giving an example of what happens when women wake the fuck up.

Erin: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think a lot about power and agency and I think about the way that we have been taught to think about power. And it's a very masculine sort of dominating power over, you know, power to put others, to make others smaller.

Natty: Well, it's about this power over versus power with.

Erin: And I think what women do, and especially women like us who are educated, high achieving, have high expectations for ourselves and our impact in the world. We do power with and we do power in partnership and in collaboration and power through giving. Giving you know, I'm in the process of building this other business and one of the principles that we're talking about is, like, you give and you get. You give and you get. You're not just showing up to take. I don't know any woman who would show up to take.

Natty: We don't operate that way

Erin: Especially in midlife, when we don't have something to prove to the patriarchy. Like, we've done it, we've established our dynamic with the patriarchy. Okay, you guys, step aside, step aside. And I don't mean men step aside. I mean, it's just rigid way of approaching everything. Step aside and let us do it our way where we support each other and we help each other and we encourage each other, and we listen to each other, like, and we give, you know. Because I think we're just naturally wired like that.

Natty: And it's a beautiful fucking thing. It is a beautiful, powerful thing when women recognize that in themselves, get in community with other women who recognize it in themselves. Like, I am not here for complaining. You know, I'm done with that conversation. I'm done with, like, the blame game. I recognize the roots of the patriarchy and how they have, like, woven their invasive, you know, vines into our beings. And also, like, recognize your power and what you're making that mean. Like, yes, it has created, you know, all of these ways of being that I have gotten to me to where I am today and that I no longer want to continue to be that way. And so from this moment on, I'm doing the work to do things differently. I'm doing the work to speak my mind. I'm doing the work to say no when I mean, no. I'm doing the work to follow my pleasure to follow my fuck yes.

Erin: Yeah, for sure. I love that so much, I love that so much. So what would you say to a listener who's thinking, yeah, yeah, all this, like, empowerment talk is all well and good, but I have, like, real circumstances in my life that are really hard to change.

Natty: Okay, like what? That's what I would say. I mean, as a coach, I'd say, okay, let's make a list, let's talk it out, start at the top. What are the circumstances? Because we all have circumstances, and it's how we relate to those circumstances. So I would say, serve me up a circumstance and how are you thinking about that? How are you relating to that circumstance? Like, what are our choices here? How else can we behave? I mean, to me, there's always a choice. And I've worked with hundreds of women, and so there are very few circumstances that I haven't seen.

Erin: Yeah, and what you talk about how pleasure is a power source, which I just love that. And that it's not a reward for good behavior. And I think, like. I mean, I always grew up with the, like, you know, you do this and then you get a cookie. You do this and then you get your ice cream. You know, for me, it's always sugar. But you know how do women plug into pleasure as a power source and not just treat it as like, if I do good in this punitive thing, then I get to have pleasure?

Natty: Yeah, well I teach women how to use pleasure as, like, a neurobiological and somatic tool. So to me, pleasure is something we use to improve our lives. So pleasure could be, pleasure lives on a spectrum, so pleasure could be like, you know, sitting outside on your stoop and eating your lunch in the sunshine on a warm June day, all the way to multiple orgasms. So what pleasure does, it relaxes your nervous system. It releases really powerful neurotransmitters into your brain: dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin. And when those things happen, our executive functioning becomes empowered. You know, we think more clearly. So there's crazy benefits. Not only, you know, when you practice pleasure, you learn what, like, this kind of fuck yes feels like in your body, right? So you're like, oh, wait, this is pleasure. You know, it's not like, you know, bubble bass and getting your fucking nails done.

Erin: That's not what self care is? I think we're sold this notion of self care that is like wellness consumerism.

Natty: Yeah, exactly. So self pleasure, I would say, is like a subset of self care. Pleasure is deep embodiment. Pleasure is me dancing naked in front of my mirror and, like, giving myself, like, a laugh and turning myself on. Like, I do this every fucking morning, Erin. Like, this is how I get out of the shower. I put my oil on my body.

Erin: The oil is the reason. The oil. I'm all about the oil these days.

Natty: Yes, so good. Like, our skin's so luscious. So pleasure is this, like, deep, embodied thing that has, like, biological implications, like, positive effects on our body. So when that happens, we do become more powerful. We become clear about what we want. We become more confident in our bodies. We know what we want and what we don't want. So, you know, I teach women how to use it as a tool. So we start with things like eat your lunch outside and then, you know, we're talking about dildos and whatever.

Erin: Right, you get to sink into the dirty stuff. Yeah, totally. You know, I never used to look in the mirror and go, Jesus Christ, you're fucking hot. And I do that almost every day now. I'm like, yes, so fucking hot and I feel it.

Natty: Yes, and it's not some fluffy affirmation.

Erin: No, it's like, you know, in the past, affirmations were like, I'm going to will myself to believe this about myself.

Natty: Affirmations do not work my brain.

Erin: I'm going to trick my brain. I'm going to rewire my brain with this language and repetition.

Natty: Your body doesn't believe it.

Erin: I did not believe it. No, my body didn't believe it. And these days, through, you know, several years of really dedicating myself to being connected with my body, to taking better care of myself on every level and, you know, to some vanity that I didn't indulge myself in, you know, in when I was younger or when I was more prioritizing other people's--I would look at women who walked around and look like they were feeling themselves and be like, how does she, God, she must spend all her time to look and look that way, like, to feel that way. It's like, no, it just becomes a different way of approaching yourself where you're at the center. You're at the center and then everything in your life radiates and gets the sort of fairy dust of your self improvement, you know?

Natty: Oh, I love that. I love that you are the sun.

Erin: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you see it if you have kids, if you're happy, your kids are happier. If you're miserable, they're feeling that.

Natty: My kids joke about the before mama and the after mama. I mean, it's kind of heartbreaking, but also funny when they're like, oh, remember when mom made us practice violin for like two hours every day? I mean, I was intense.

Erin: Yeah, I was not intense on my kids in terms of demanding things of them. I was just not that nice because I was not happy. And I was short with them and I still feel like I have a ton of apologizing to do, you know. And I mainly make a living amends where I just live in the space of rupture happens, and then I repair it and then we talk things through. And when I commit to being different, I take that seriously. I don't make idle promises to them. And, you know, just try to live with the integrity that comes from owning yourself and your choices and having your own back in this life.

Natty: At the end of the day, I mean, that's it, right? Like, you have to have your own back. You have to. You're the only--and we can have really great friends. I do feel like the women in my life, they have my back, but, I mean, you have to believe that you're worth it and that you want it and that, like, look, what could be possible.

Erin: And you're tired of not having it, you know, so it's available for you. So Hotter Than Ever is all about giving women permission and ideas for how to do things differently in the second half of our lives. So what do you want our listeners to take away from this conversation about what is possible for them going forward?

Natty: Well, I will say anything's fucking possible for you going forward. And I mean that. And I'm not just saying, like, you know, some fuzzy, fluffy thing, but number one, make the choice. Make the fucking choice to put yourself first, starting now. And maybe the most important thing, surround yourself with women who want to do the work alongside you. The women in my life have changed everything for me. My entire group of friends almost has changed over the last decade. So just being around women who want the same things that you want, that will change the game for you.

Erin: I love it. I love you, Natty Frasca. I think you're amazing. I'm so grateful to be in your orbit and just so glad we've connected and more please.

Natty: Yeah, we're not done. This is just the beginning. It's the beginning of us.

Erin: There you go. There you go.

Thanks for listening to Hotter Than Ever. I hope you enjoyed this conversation about the feminine rebellion and centering your own damn self in your life. Do you know someone who puts themselves last on the list of priorities? If you so easy to do that, especially around the holidays when there are so many demands on us on the domestic, the domestic, the domesticated woman front. There's so many people to take care of. Do you know any woman who doesn't put everybody else first? Maybe you need to share this episode with them and tell them they have your permission and mine and Natty Frasca's to love and prioritize themselves and to center themselves in the story of their lives.

Hotter Than Ever is produced by Erica Gerard and Podkit Productions. Our associate producer is Melody Carey. Music is by Chris Keating with vocals by Issa Fernandez.

I challenge you to prioritize yourself this holiday season, to not burn yourself out with the hope of making everything perfect for everyone else. Your presence, your love, your energy, your intention, your passion, your goodwill. You deserve some of that good mojo, too.