What The Golden Girls Teaches Us About Aging Well with Dr. Maria Carpiac

Erin: Welcome to Hotter Than Ever, where we uncover the unconscious rules. We've been following. We break those rules and we find a new path to being freer, happier, sexier, and more satisfied in the second half of life. of our lives. I'm your host, Erin Keating.

Welcome to any listeners who are new, who have just stumbled on this podcast or had it recommended to them by friends or found it in the great expanse of the internet and podcast listings. Maybe you are out there looking for something that speaks to you. You're changing life over 40. You're changing life in a career shift. You're changing life after a divorce or a separation. Our lives are changing all the time, and we are here to have authentic conversations that empower us and light us up and make us laugh and make us think about all of the options we have.

As the most successful generation of women who have ever lived, the most empowered, the most fucking gorgeous. I got to say it. It sounds superficial, but it's not you know, we are aging stunningly. New listeners, and I am so happy to have you here along with all of the wonderful, amazing returning listeners who may be joined this podcast at the very beginning and have been devoted or have recently discovered it somehow in a desperate middle of the night search for how do I have sex and date after I divorce in midlife.

Maybe you found me that way. Anyway, I'm thrilled that you're here on a totally separate note. I just bought some new clothes and you know, what's on trend animal prints. I literally just bought an entire new wardrobe. Not true. An H& M and Nordstrom Rack haul of clothes, half of which probably were cheetah print.

And I am here for it. Is it extra? Absolutely. Do I care? No, I do not. I am at peace with the fact that I am an animal print girl and that is just who I am. That is how I feel like my best self is when I'm wearing animal prints. I had a friend who dresses more plainly than I do, who is much less. It's sort of showy and glammy than I am.

And she once said to me, you know, I always picture you in animal prints. And I thought, is that kind of an insult coming from you? I kind of was like, Oh, you think I'm a lot. Yeah, you think I'm a lot. Okay. Well, maybe I'm a lot. I don't believe that I am too much. I really believe I am just right, and I am embracing the animal print moment, the cheetah moment, 1000%.

I'm gonna do me. Thank you very much. And that's what today's guest, Dr. Maria Carpiac, suggests we all do as we age. Maria is a professor of gerontology and director of the California State University at Long Beach gerontology program.

Gerontology is the study of aging, and that is what we are here to talk about today. She teaches several courses, including. Social policy and aging such critical study, um, such critical policy, global aging, how people age around the world and women in aging lessons from The Golden Girls, which is one of the best sitcoms of all time and also serves as the through line of a popular class that she teaches.

What a smart and fun idea Maria's work really brings home for me how critical representation is. Seeing models of how other people, fictional or otherwise, are living and aging, telling stories and making jokes about what's happening in our lives. I just believe so deeply in the power of media to create cultural change and to raise awareness about important issues.

And comedies like The Golden Girls do that in such a deft and non preachy way. It is just great to be reminded of what's possible. In terms of television by dipping into a show like The Golden Girls, that is just so classic and powerful. Maria says that 75% of how we age is about lifestyle factors.

So we have a lot of agency and impact on whether or not we age well. We talk about blue zones and the nine things that people who live in these parts of the worlds who are aging healthily and happily and living very long lives. We talk about those nine things that they all have in common. We get into communal living, which is what is modeled on The Golden Girls.

We talk about why socializing face to face and getting off our screens and social media is critical to healthy aging. We talk about getting comfortable with change. You know, that is one of my favorite topics. Regular listeners know I'm always banging the drum of getting cool with change. And we also talk about whether or not we will ever be able to retire. It's a really good conversation. All right, let's get hot

Maria Carpiac, welcome to Hotter Than Ever.

Dr. Maria: Thank you so much for having me.

Erin: I am so happy to have you here. When I saw that you were teaching a college course based on one of the most iconic sitcoms of all time, The Golden Girls, I think Bea Arthur might be my spirit animal. I knew I needed to talk to you and that the insights that you might have would be useful to the hotter than ever audience.

Dr. Maria: I'm so glad you found me and invited me. And I love talking about The Golden Girls, of course. And I love talking about aging. And you are completely correct in your definition about gerontology being the study of older adults. But let me also add, it's the study of aging, which all of us do from the moment we're born. So I'm always trying to get the word out that aging is about us. It's not about those older adults, whatever that means, older adults.

Erin:  It's about anybody. It's the process of really living until you die.

Dr. Maria: Right, exactly. And you know what? That statement is more profound than you might give yourself credit for, because it is about living. Living until you die, whatever that looks like. And I'm sure we'll dive into all of that, but you got it?

Erin:  Yeah. Okay, great. I'm already ahead of the game.

Dr. Maria: A plus for you, Erin.

Erin: Oh, thank you. I've always been a good student. So let's start with you, and then we can work our way to McClanahan, Betty White, Bea Arthur, Estelle Getty, and assorted boyfriends and things that came in and out of the show. But tell us about how you became interested in the study of aging. Because I think it's a thing that most people are like, they just want to put their hands over their ears and go la, la, la. And I'm not going to deal with it. It's happening to me, but I don't really like to look directly at it.

Dr. Maria: Of course. Yeah. And there's so many taboo topics in the whole field. So I always had an amazing network of older adults in my life. Grandparents, great grandparents, the whole thing. And so I think maybe that planted some seeds before I even knew what was happening. And then education wise, I was what my friends would call a permit student, which now I understand. Being a lifelong learner is so good for us and our brains and our mental health.

But to be quite honest, I had been a third grade teacher for a year. I loved working with all populations, but there was something special about this population. Like you said, a lot of people want to bury their heads in the sand. A lot of my students admit that there's a lot of fear, definitely misunderstanding about aging, and there was something that drew me to that. I kind of feel like gerontology is this frontier. Never before in history have humans lived this long, and there's so many unknowns. And I think that drew me into the field as well. And the more that I do it, the more I fall in love with it, and the more I age.

I'm so grateful that I have the wisdom of older women, especially, that have come before me and gone through their process, that it's just, it's such a gift to hear their experiences. So it's a field that is so sorely needed. Yeah, we need more people in the field that understand the issues. Yet it's a hard sell sometimes to get attention. Well, again, I think it's the stereotypes, I think it's the ageism. It's all the icky things that people tend to think about with aging. And, you know, there are reasons for that. You know, being a media person yourself, it's not a surprise that aging has not been portrayed so well in all sorts of media.

And so, of course, that's going to paint a scary picture. And so I think that's slowly changing. We're working on it.

Erin: Yeah. I liked hearing that from you, from your professional expertise, because what I see is, you know, I'm 53. I look at the women in my life around me who are my age, ten years younger, ten years older, 20 years older, and I see this group of women who have never been healthier, never been smarter, more accomplished, more educated, more gorgeous, more fit, more healthy, like, more vital. I think aging is changing, and we are all looking at. My mother is about to come visit me tomorrow. She's 80, and she's very alive. She's very vital. She's very involved in her community.

And for our whole family, you know, we tend to live a long time. The women tend to live a long time and do it well. But what my mom is for our family is a real example of how to stay involved, stay engaged, stay alive, stay connected, stay well for a long time. And I have a couple new friends who have come into my life through this podcast who are anti aging, you know, pro longevity advocates and who are doing all kinds of biohacking and amazing crazy stuff, using themselves as experiments to age as vitally as possible. And so we are just in a moment where getting older looks really different. I think you're right. It has looked.

Dr. Maria: And I'll poke in. Not to be nitty gritty. But I would.

Erin: No do. You're here for.

Dr. Maria: The words that we use are so important. I think that frames the way that we have these discussions about aging and what it means to be aging in a healthy way.

Erin: Yeah.

Dr. Maria: So I tend to really shy away from and kind of fight against anti aging. Yeah.

Erin: It's a debate we've been having on this podcast. Yes.

Dr. Maria: Because there's no way to anti age. You're not going to not age, however. It's the way that we age. It's the steps we take at any age that help us live the kind of older ages that we want to live. And so the anti aging movement, I would love for us to just wipe that term off the map. I think, actually, I read somewhere that Vogue magazine a few years ago decided to remove that term from their magazine, so hurrah to that. But even the American Medical association has an anti aging component, and I just think that that does us a disservice. It's not about not aging.

It's about doing it well. And I love, I love your kind of missive about how we seem to be healthier than ever and more knowledgeable than ever, and we're standing up for ourselves, which is such a beautiful thing.

Erin: Yeah.

Dr. Maria: And I think that's for good reason. I think that we all are starting to realize there's no one way to age well. And you can age well despite the fact that you might have been dealt some genetic challenges. But let me tell you this, and hopefully this encourages folks rather than makes them feel like, oh, gosh, this is really my responsibility, isn't it? Is that about 75% of how well we age is about our lifestyle factors? We've got about 25%. That is the genetic hand we're dealt, like I said. But there's so much room in there to maneuver the way that those genes are expressed. So.

Erin: So tell me what the lifestyle factors are, because I think, you know, there's, there's the ones that pop immediately into my mind. But what's your list?

Dr. Maria: So it's not my list, but it's a list that I live by. There was a fabulous documentary, I think, within the last two years called the blue zones. So, the blue zones, there were some demographers who look at patterns in populations, and they were noticing that in several parts of the world, there were groups of older adults that were living really old ages but living well. And so a national geographic reporter went to those places, Dan Buettner, and he's like, what's going on? In these communities where these folks are living into these great old ages, but still independent and happy. And all of this, he boiled it all down to the power nine. Now, this is. He's been tweaking this a little bit, but you can look up blue zones. The book is fabulous, the documentary is amazing, but it comes down to the things that you would think.

So your diet, making more of a plant based diet. Definitely. Eating breakfast was one of them. No, about keeping in eating, you know, throughout the day. It's about finding your tribe, is the way he puts it, which actually, if anyone asks me, like, hey, you study aging. What is the key? What's the key to living well, to living long? More than anything, it is your tribe. It is having social support. And again, that might look different to you than it looks to me.

For some people, it's having that one person that they know they can count on to call at three in the morning should something happen. Or for others, it's having more of a group of people that social support is key, but certainly diet, exercise, and it's not necessarily like hitting the gym. It's about making natural movement part of your everyday. It's about faith. So whatever that looks like to you, those are the key elements. And I think, again, we go The Golden Girls, and I know we'll get there, but, man, they did that so well.

Erin: Why is faith a factor?

Dr. Maria: I think it has to do with our stress management. There are several reasons why, but certainly when folks rely on faith, they find ways to ground themselves and get through the stressful times. We know that stress is a killer. It really is.

Erin: Yeah.

Dr. Maria: So downshifting is another one of those power nine, meaning finding ways, rituals throughout the day that help you power down, kind of breathing through, you know, life's craziness. It's. It's really interesting because sometimes I tell my students, you know, don't drink, don't smoke. This is how you live a long life. And then we watch these videos of people who are 100 plus, and they ask, you know, oh, mister so and so. What's. How do you. What do you attribute to your long life? He's like, well, every night I sit down and I have a glass of whiskey and smoke my cigar, and it's like, oh, no, that's wrong message.

Yeah. But I think what it is is having that ritual to kind of let the day go. And so again, I don't recommend the whiskey and the cigars, but having that, whatever it is, meditation, you know, just sitting and breathing important things.

Erin: Yeah. Stress is so interesting, because I don't know how you avoid it. Like, especially if you are a mom and you have a career and you're managing a household and, you know, your business life and your marriage and maybe being a single parent and managing your custody stuff and managing your money. Like, I found that when I was doing the having it all life and checking all the boxes and having corporate success and everything looking perfect on the outside, my stress level was so unmanageable. I swear, that aged me like, a decade. Being in that kind of work environment and that kind of go, go, go, high demand, constant, constant, like, nervous system engagement. Like, it feels thrilling in the moment. It feels like I'm really living.

I'm really doing it. But I had no way to unwind. So I have needed to, like, literally stop everything and take a break from living that way for the last two years because I needed to come back to some kind of wellness, some kind of well being, because I was so often dysregulated in a million different ways. I'm using catchphrases of, oh, dysregulated wellness. You know, this is the language we have. I just. I envy The Golden Girls and their community, their cohabitation. They don't need to work, you know, although they do. Oh, they do. Okay, so you know way more about your golden girl. All right, let's go into it, because.

Dr. Maria: First, let me say, aaron, let me say, I just want to acknowledge your courageous and bravery in pivoting. Knowing that the things that looked good on paper, that didn't feel good on the inside, is an incredibly brave move. I'm a big fan of Brene Brown, and she talks about vulnerability, and that is a very vulnerable thing to finally say. You know what? We've been handed this script, we women of this age, because we're in the same age range, and we've been handed this script that. But you can have it all. You can do it all. We're super women. And yes, we are super women, but not because we pile our plates so full that we, in private, barely are functioning.

And so congratulations on that. And I do think that links into this discussion of successful aging and why The Golden Girls were such a great example of that. Because I think aside from having your social support network, my own personal thought is that we do best in our aging journeys when we accept and learn how to pivot and reinvent ourselves. And that's exactly what you've done and will probably continue to do throughout your life. And I hope that both of us and everybody listening gives themselves permission to do a little kind of state of the union meeting with themselves and figures out, how do I need to pivot to be happy here? And The Golden Girls, they really did that so well. A couple of them were widowed, and a couple of them were divorced, and they figured out a way to build a support network and were constantly reinventing themselves, sometimes doing some wacky stuff, like trying to raise money, raising minks. So there was one episode where they're raising minks.

Erin: Um, dude, I know. I know people who have bought alpaca farms. It's not that, like, out there, really.

Dr. Maria: Right. But, you know, you got to try things, and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But they certainly would. They've had episodes where they were trying to look for work, find jobs, and, of course, people were like, well, why would we hire you? You're. You're so old. Yeah. So many great things that were examples in those shows of the things that I teach and that we laugh at it and we feel comforted whenever we hear that opening song of the show. But they really addressed some hard hitting issues that, sad to say, are often still issues today. We're still kind of trying to figure out how to do this well and be happy along the way.

Erin: Yeah. So The Golden Girls was, like, eighties and nineties, right? Like, late eighties, early nineties. It ran for many years. Yeah, seven years. So that is, like, you know, 150 episodes or something like that.

Dr. Maria: Oh, I haven't done that math. Okay.

Erin: Yeah. I mean, it's a lot of episodes, assuming, you know, 22 or something a season. Being a tv girl, it's four women over 50. If you have not seen it, if you have not seen it, where have you been? They live in a house together in Miami. One of the characters owns the house, and that was Blanche, the sexy ru McClanahan, always, like, tarting herself up for dates and lots of guys in and out for her. I relate a little bit to Blanche. The other three rent rooms in her house, and that is Betty White, the beloved Betty White Bea Arthur sort of comedic goddess walking on earth. And Estelle Getty, who played Dorothy, Bea Arthur's mom.

Right. Who was, like, the wisecracking old lady.

Dr. Maria: Yeah.

Erin: And they were in their fifties, other than Sophia. Right. Fifties and sixties. Okay.

Dr. Maria: Correct. Because although Blanche never did admit her real age.

Erin: But why would she. Why would she be out of character? So one thing that it models, which is something we've been talking about on the podcast, is, like, different ways of living, you know, cohabitation having roommates. My best friend and I have always talked about, like, when we get old, we want houses next door to each other. And I'm starting to see a lot of stuff out in the media about people who are living in compounds or people who are buying houses in the same neighborhood so that they can be close to each other and take care of each other. This seems so freaking radical when we talk about it, but so practical. And here this show has a gorgeous model of how these women take care of each other.

Dr. Maria: Exactly. And again, that's one reason I love this field, is that we're exploring creative, out of the box methods of doing this. Well, so what you're describing about buying houses in the same neighborhood, there's a whole. It's actually an intergenerational movement, but was kind of more born out of the needs of older adults. But there's a whole movement that started in the Boston area called the village movement. So people would form these villages where they would look out for each other and help each other out. This person needs a ride to the doctor, but that person who needed a ride to the doctor because they don't drive anymore, happens to be a retired plumber and can still do light plumbing jobs. So they all kind of pitch in, whatever their talents and whatever their skills might be, and they help each other out, and then they'll band together to make connections with professional services and say, hey, we've got this group that's a village. Can you give us a discount if we. If you're our designated handyman.

Erin:  Right. Or whatever.

Dr. Maria: Right, right. So there are very creative ways of folks not to rely on governmental programs. I mean, there are a lot of great programs out there. Sometimes people don't know how to get connected. But I think people, I think this is where I see things going, is that folks are starting to take matters into their own hands and figure out how to deal with living situations, housing services, et cetera, et cetera.

Erin: That's incredible. And it's hilarious to me because we are in this political moment in our culture where if Donald Trump can call Kamala Harris a Marxist on the debate stage, and there's all this sort of, like, retro, kind of anti commie kind of conversations happening in the culture, which is largely nonsense, but this is communal living. This is, you know, like, the plumber has this talent, and you have that talent, and everybody can come together and help the community and help each other. Like, it really, it's really hilarious to me how counter it runs to this sort of radical self reliance that we have been taught is what is the most important thing about being an American.

Dr. Maria: Gosh, there's so much to unpack in that statement, but it does feel like we're kind of going back to that 1950s, you know, a new neighbor moves into the neighborhood, and you bring in some brownies and welcome them. I think that is such a healthy way to live in so many ways. And certainly as more and more Americans are aging and, you know, and families have spread out, you know, it's.

Erin: That's right.

Dr. Maria: We're kind of seeing a little bit of that movement of multi generational families more than we have probably in the last few decades.

Erin: Oh, yeah. The pandemic really lends to that.

Dr. Maria: Yeah, it sure did. It sure did. And I think that that a little bit of that's happening, and I think more of that, you know, again, and it might not be your blood family, you know, it might be that, hey, you know, I live in this neighborhood with my young family, and the people next door are kind of like, even though I have lots of family members of my own, but they're like my adopted grandparents that I look out for and that they look out for me. And I think we're starting to understand that we. That it's okay to rely on each other a little bit more.

Erin: I want that, but I am not wired for that. Like, I don't know how to go about doing that. Like, I I feel like the way that I live and the way that a lot of us live is like, I'm in my little domain and I come out to interact with the world for my professional life, for my social life, and for my kids lives. But beyond that, like, I don't have a real relationship with the geographic community that I have chosen as an adult. And I think a lot of us are in that boat.

Dr. Maria: And I think social media plays a role in that as well. You know, you don't necessarily have to step out your front door to make connections with people. The connections are very different than the connections that we make through whatever technology is available. And that's a whole other podcast, I'm sure. But I know one of your recent guests, Doctor Nan Wise, was talking about how children now, their brains are developing differently because of so much screen time. I found that fascinating. I think I've quoted her saying that to about a dozen different people since I listened to that episode. So, yes, things continue to change, and we can't beat stuck and not accept that things are changing.

I think we can also make our own choices to make those connections and step out of our comfort zones. I think our generation, the whole Gen X, it's kind of this stereotype, but maybe not about us. It's like, why are you calling me on the phone? This could be a text.

Erin:  Oh. I mean, that's everybody from 50 down.

Dr. Maria: Down. Exactly.

Erin: Yeah. It's, like, psychotic when someone calls you.

Dr. Maria: Right? Like, oh, man. But to have those face to face interactions is vital. And so we have to make the decision to do what doesn't feel comfortable. And I will say, and I think I mentioned this before, each of our aging journeys is unique. So there is no one size fits all, and so it's what you feel fulfilled and comfortable doing that really is the most important, in my opinion.

Erin: Yeah.

Dr. Maria: So, yeah, you got to take that where it leads.

Erin: Yeah. So back to The Golden Girls.

Dr. Maria: Oh, yes.

Erin: So each class of yours is based on a different episode. So what are the topics that this show has taken on in a way that you found instructive for your students?

Dr. Maria: There is nothing this show hasn't covered. So to narrow it down to a 15 week semester was heart wrenching when I first designed the class a few years ago, but I wanted to make sure that I provided a safe space for the students and community members to discuss the things they normally wouldn't have permission or a space to mull over. So we discuss kind of the more conventional topics, like caregiving, which I like to call care partnering. So, care partnering, intergenerational relationships, housing, friendship, but also things like chronic illness. There is a fabulous two part episode where Dorothy gets the runaround because she's having symptoms and none of her doctors are really taking her seriously. And it turns out she's got chronic fatigue syndrome. And there is a beautiful scene where she ends up bumping into one of the physicians that says, well, you're getting older. What do you expect? She now has a diagnosis from another doctor and is able to confront this doctor that dismissed her.

It's gorgeous. I want to stand up and do a standing o, even if I'm alone watching it by myself.

Erin: It's beautiful because she's advocating for herself and God. I mean, so many of us have this experience in our lives of especially women and women's health issues and issues around aging and menopause. Like, oh, yes. You know, and that's another really dismissed.

Dr. Maria: Yeah, we are. We are. And more women are speaking up. There are some great books out there, especially around the menopause issue. But there is another episode where Blanche thinks she's pregnant and ends up going to the doctor and finds out that she's entering pre menopause. And of course, there's a whole, again, beautiful discussion with a psychiatrist who challenges her thoughts about why do you think this means you're no longer you and that you're not a sexual being, despite the fact that you're going through this very natural change. It's just. I mean, again, you said late eighties, early nineties.

That's correct. Just hit it right. The nail on the head, especially. And I appreciate it more with every decade that I age. And as I'm in this period of my life, it's just done so well.

Erin: Yeah, what we get today is the, like, reboot of Sex and the City, which is so fucking fake. It's like. And trying to be so woke and check all the boxes. It just feels like even faker than the original. And I always found the original to be very fake and kind of a gay male fantasy of what women's lives and friendships are like. But I feel like it's a big loss for us culturally, that television and that comedy, especially narrative comedy like this, with characters that you fall in love with and come back to week after week, you know, the Norman Lear era of television, where we were really taking on important social issues, and this was the water cooler, and there were a limited number of channels and a limited number of stories that could be told. For us collectively, I think it's a huge loss that we no longer have this common arena for these conversations. And my hope is that there will be some renaissance of this kind of work.

And you see every couple of years, some meaningful show trying to take on being a sitcom. But the audiences are so fractured now. Like, it would have to be something that was viral on social media or that existed on Netflix. You know, that's really the only place where we're all watching.

Dr. Maria: And how many shows can we. So in the absence of that, we go back to the original shows, which it's been such a delight to see, how just, you know, Golden Girls has reblown up as it should, because it still holds true. Even though I've noticed that for many of my students, some of the pop culture references, they're kind of like, what? Like, who's Burt Reynolds? You know, when he guessed, who is this Julio Iglesiae person? But I think it's super cool. Somebody actually wrote a companion book that explains all of the pop culture references. So, you know, I'm there to explain to my students, okay, this is what they're talking about. But people are getting really creative in helping the newer viewer of this beautiful show kind of figure out what are they talking about.

Erin: Yeah, so, yeah, so are they. They're not retired or. They are retired.

Dr. Maria: They are. Well, no, because Dorothy has gone back as a substitute teacher. Blanche worked in an art museum. Rose. There's a great episode where she becomes a reporter, Enrico Maas, who's like the consumer affairs reporter. So they all do, with the exception of Sofia. But Sophia is very active in volunteering, so she volunteers at the hospital. So they're all, I love that they've reinvented themselves in the show as well.

They're not just sitting around knitting a sweater. They're doing things. They're getting out there. They're trying new things. And so that's part of this journey as well, is, you know, gone are the days where people say, okay, I'm 65, I'm retired now let's. You've got at least 2025 and up more years to figure out what you want to do with your life. And going back to the blue zones, those power nine. Having a purpose is another huge factor in how well we age.

It's having that in Japanese. This is one of my favorite japanese words, ikigai. It sounds like you're saying icky guy, but it icky guy. It's your reason for getting up in the morning. And all of us need that.

Erin: Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think once our kids leave the house, and if we had kids, which obviously not all of us do these days, and our careers are sort of shifting and changing due to changing needs in the marketplace, changing technology, ageism. Like, I think finding that purpose has got to be top on the agenda of every woman I know and every woman listening to this podcast, like, what is my reason for being once I am more of a free agent in my life and all of this expanse of time that was taken up with caregiving or care partnering with its kids, really caregiving, they don't partner so much. What am I going to do with all the space and time that I have left? And I ask about retirement because I just don't know what that's going to look like for us. You know, like, and if that's actually ever going to be a thing, given the economic realities of this sort of hyper polarized, economically unjust system that we live in.

Dr. Maria: Right, the economic piece. But also, like you said, we are better educated, we're healthier, we are, I think, more in touch for the most part, with. And it's hard because I think when you do spend a major chunk of your time really focused on others, you almost forget, okay, well, what is it that makes me tick? I've kind of been. Not that. Not that raising children and caring for others is a burden, but it's all consuming, I would imagine. And so, again, it goes back to that comment of going through this journey and aging and getting into older years. It's all about becoming comfortable with change. Change is the only constant.

It's the only thing that we can predict that will continue to happen. So I think that if we can, at our ages, at younger ages, if we can work on getting more comfortable with this reinvention, this pivoting, this figuring out, okay, what makes me tick today might be very different than what made me tick and what made me passionate at age 30. And so it's so vital to take that time to reflect and to be honest with ourselves and to be willing to take chances. You are a great example of that. Take those chances. It's very rare these days for someone to do the same thing for their entire working life and then stop cold turkey and then go golf or do whatever it is, you know, for 30 years.

Erin: Right, right.

Dr. Maria: I mean, retirement is going to be a whole new concept and already is.

Erin: Yeah. I mean, I'm fascinated by statistically, like, okay, hopefully there'll be Social Security, but most of us don't have enough money to retire on as much as they, they push the financial instruments that that will hopefully help you do that. The reality is that most people are just getting through it, you know, and then if you're divorced, you've probably taken a financial hit and you're probably reinventing all aspects of your life, and it's hard not to be scared.

Dr. Maria: Yeah, I think, as with most things, I think that it's good to have a general overview of what you think. Get educated. I think that's what it is. Knowledge is power, for sure. Get educated. And then once you kind of have a general sense of the overall plan, understand that plans change all the time. So that's my own personal whenever I'm going through some big whopping thing, whether it's moving or trying to finish a big project, I try to look at the overall picture where I hope to end up and then just take it a step at a time and continue to do that pause, check in, and lean on that social network that I've been begging everyone to make sure that they foster that, especially for those periods of our time where it seems like our plates are so full and that we're running in 70 different directions. Make sure you foster those friendships.

Make sure that you take even a moment to check in with your friends so that we're likely all going through the same life situations. So we understand when, you know, we can't get together every week and all of that, make sure you keep those connections, because that, I think, is really one of those super tools to get you through. Oh, gosh, what happens next, right? Because, like, I better survey my girls. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And especially, there's such a beautiful power of women getting together and supporting each other. And every time I get together in a room full of women, it just reminds me there's something very special there, and we can help each other through whatever it is that pops up in this journey.

Erin: I agree. I love women. This podcast is for women. The people I interview are women who are extraordinary, like yourself, who are leading important conversations that are going to help us figure out how to do this next chapter of our lives. And I think because we are the socializers, because we are the community creators, because we are the social glue, like, I think we have a much better shot than a lot of men do who depend on the women in their lives to provide that. And I look at the models of aging that I have seen around me in my own family, and I am concerned about the mental health challenges and depression that I see in men who did not know what to do with themselves upon retirement because work gave them so much purpose. And then how are they going to equip themselves to be happy, especially if they're not married, if they don't have a woman to take care of them? I worry about them much more than I worry about us.

Dr. Maria: The research actually backs up what you're saying. You know, after losing a spouse to death, men definitely remarry at much higher rates, partly because that. You're right. You're absolutely right that when men tend to retire, that is such a huge part of their identity and more and more for women, but women tend to be able to, again, to foster those networks outside of the work relationship and outside of their blood family relationship. So, you know, things, again, things I think are shifting a little bit because women have taken on different roles. But I do get concerned that preparing for retirement is not just about the financial part. And I remember talking with my dad before he retired. My poor parents, they go through so much because I'm a gerontologist.

So, you know, we talk about death and, you know, really, do we have my focus group? Yeah, exactly. So, but I asked my dad, I said, hey, dad, I know you've been planning financially for retirement for a while, but what are you going to do with your time? What are you going to. How are you going to live a meaningful life? Because he's, like a people person. So we need to. We need to guide people through that to prepare them. What is your next act gonna look like?

Erin: Yeah.

Dr. Maria: And that's part of the joy I get out of talking with older adults is that for some older adults, especially in my parents generation, people weren't asking them those questions, you know?

Erin: No. Well, things were a lot more linear, I think, for the generation of people who came up and experienced radical prosperity, this moment of radical prosperity for 30 years, from the late forties to the late seventies in the US. And that's what we were raised to think was normal. And we have had to constantly pivot, constantly adapt, constantly reassess. Like, we are more equipped for aging in the way that you talk about what we need to know how to do, because that has been what we've done our whole lives. As we've lived through recessions and we've lived through pandemics, and we've lived through radical cultural changes and the birth of technology and all this stuff, I think the culture conspires. One of my favorite things to say, the culture conspires. The culture conspires to tell us everything is us as individuals.

When so much of what we're going through is systemic and impacted by these larger socioeconomic trends that were created by people on purpose. This is not just like what happened, you know, this has been a systematic, okay, I'm going to get radical here. It's been a systematic wealth grab by the 1%. So this is what's happened. And then we all think, how come my life is so complicated and hard? How come I have to deal with all these things that my parents didn't have to deal with? Well, it's because these systemic things are coming down and sitting on our shoulders. And thank God we are who we are as a generation of people and a generation of women who go, okay, I guess that's the circumstance. Us Gen Xers, we will diy it and find a solution.

Dr. Maria: Right? And that's what I was gonna say. I think that there's a balance because, yes, we live in the society that we live in, and there are definite institutions and ways of thinking that have been set up for a very long time. And, you know, blessings to the people who get out there and are like, I'm gonna change the world. I think for me, I'm realizing that there's a real, you have to recognize the system within which we are working, but also take the responsibility. I'm going to do things differently. And again, I know I'm speaking from a place of my background and my characteristics, and I want to highly recognize the fact that there are lots of folks out there that feel very trapped by our societal way of doing things. So, yes, I feel more motivated as I get older to change my little corner of the world. Yeah, that to me, feels so much more doable.

You know, we need the folks who want to change things on a grand scale. I feel like if I focus on my little corner of the world, which for me is educating women of all ages, because my students range in age from their twenties to their seventies, and learning from each other and empowering women to make choices that work for them and to push those boxes that we've been put in to, because it can get very frustrating. You're trying to do your daily stuff, you're trying to keep your mental health as stable as possible and raise your families and support your friends, and it can get very overwhelming. And so, again, I think it's about taking a hard look at what it is. We need to be whole and happy and therefore be examples to others. That's kind of the tack I've been taking. Maybe I'll get on the soapbox and really get all crazy advocate in ten more years. I don't know. Who knows what will happen?

Erin: Yeah. For me, it's always just a blend of the conversations, because I don't want women to feel like it's their fault that they ended up dealing with these larger issues that are actually the cause of them are macroeconomic and policy. I think we tend to be like, I'm not gratitude journaling enough. You know what I mean? Like, prioritizing my wellness enough. Right. So I just want people to feel a little bit like, yeah, it's not like I have someone to blame it on, but it's not just me. It's all of us all going through this. And one thing you said in our conversation before this interview was that we need to learn to separate what's normal about aging from the parts that are disease and the parts that are ageism.

Dr. Maria: Yes.

Erin: I'd love to hear from you what you mean by that.

Dr. Maria: It's so dangerous. It's downright dangerous when we assume that some of the things that happen are normal aging. And I can't tell you how many times, you know, well, you know, grandma is starting to forget things. She doesn't know where she is. Oh, what do you expect? She's 90. It's so dangerous to assume that disease states are normal aging. So there's a definite difference between. There are things that will change in our bodies, in our minds, because of aging.

Yes, there are lots of things that are not normal. And so when we assume that they're normal, we don't seek care. Or even more dangerous, if healthcare providers aren't well educated about the difference between the two, you might be dismissed. Or maybe there are symptoms that are coming up that. Let me give you an example. Huge stereotype that older women don't have sex anymore.

Erin: Right?

Dr. Maria: That's so false. So false. So if they come into their doctor's office with symptoms of, let's say, a sexually transmitted infection, but the doctor's not even thinking for a second that they could even be sexually active, you can see how that could be dangerous.

Erin: Did that happen on The Golden Girls? Did anybody get herpes or anything?

Dr. Maria: No, there were no herpes onThe Golden Girls.

Erin: That would have been radical.

Dr. Maria: Oh, Rose Niland is turning in her little grave. There was an episode, however, where Rose had received a blood transfusion and received a letter in the mail that she might have been exposed to HIV. And so the episode was called 72 hours because that's how long it used to take to get the results from the blood test for the HIV. And so there was a whole public commentary. I mean, it was powerful about Rose saying, well, why am I the one dealing with this? Blanche, you should have been the one dealing with this, because Blanche was a lot more.

Erin: Because she's slutty.

Dr. Maria: Yeah. Yeah, so I'm trying to be all nice about it.

Erin: Yeah.

Dr. Maria: So, yeah, so, you know, syphilis? No. Herpes. No. But, yes, HIV was approached. But that, again, that's where it gets very dangerous in terms of the stereotypes and depression. For example, again, there's the stereotype that older people. Most older people are depressed because, you know, they don't work anymore. And their fan.

That's not the truth. Their depression rates are no higher than teenagers, and especially nowadays. So if an older adult is exhibiting signs of depression, it's really important not to sweep that under the rug. We need to address it.

Erin: Yeah.

Dr. Maria: So there's a lot of education that needs to happen about what is normal, what is not. Yeah, I think it takes away some of the fear as well.

Erin: Yeah, definitely. Because I. I have always thought of, like, a light touch of dementia as, like, a normal part of aging, but no, it's symptomatic of something else that's going on.

Dr. Maria: Right. And you don't have to jump, like, from zero to dementia, because there are lots of things that might look like dementia that are actually not. For example, an undiagnosed urinary tract infection can cause symptoms that look like dementia. And the minute you clear up an infection, the thought process clears up much more complex. Our little bodies are so much more complex than that.

Erin: Right. Then we pretend like they are.

Dr. Maria: Yeah, yeah.

Erin: And then ageism, like, I'm so curious to talk about that because I think it's real. And I also think that we have internalized a lot of ageism where we tell ourselves, oh, I can't do that because I'm too old, or, well, that's not befitting someone of my age, or I'm going to put these limitations on myself, my life, my pursuits, my passions, because, you know, I'm too old for that.

Dr. Maria: Right. And where do we get that mostly, hate to say it, the media. So, you know, the images that we see of older adults, older women in movies and television and magazine advertising and advertising, you know, it's either women of a certain age, let's just say 50 and above. Women 50 and above are either absent completely, or they're portrayed in some kind of comedic, like, oh, how cute. This older woman's trying to ride a skateboard. You know, something like that.

Erin: Right.

Dr. Maria: Or these very stereotypical frail. The Gina Davis Institute has been doing work for a couple of decades about looking at the ways in which children, women, people of different populations, are portrayed in the media and are really focusing on older women. And they have just statistical data that shows that one of their reports is called frail, frumpy, and forgotten. That kind of sums it up.

Erin: Well, is that us? Like, it is so untrue. It is just patently untrue.

Dr. Maria: Exactly. And there are some examples. I don't want to just be completely gloom and doom. There are some fabulous examples of movies and tv shows that have characters or focus on characters in a more realistic way. But we need to be shouting from the rooftops, hey, we want better representation in media, because like you said, it's not just mean to portray older adults in a certain way and older women, but we internalize it from when we're very young children, we see these images in our fairy tales. Who are the older women in fairy tales? The wicked witches. Yeah, the ones trying to eat the children. What is that? So we internalize that, and then we set up expectations for our own aging journey.

And if we don't see those positive role models, not everybody is lucky enough to have wonderful, vibrant grandparents or other older family members or adopted family members. And so when we don't have those folks in our lives, we look to the television shows and the movies, and if all we're seeing are frail, frumpy, or not seeing it, then we're missing out on what is this supposed to look like? Right.

Erin: Right. And we don't have The Golden Girls to model, model ourselves after. I think a lot about what is the show that is the update to that. Cause it's not Grace and Frankie. They skip us. They skip the 50 to 70 year olds and go straight to the 80 year olds, like women in their fifties and sixties. Like, where are we in terms of representation? Our stories are not being told and we are not telling our own stories. In literature, yes.

In memoir, yes. I think there's a lot of great writing out there. On substack, absolutely. On social media, absolutely. But unconventional, very expensive to produce, highly curated, star driven properties. We're gone.

Dr. Maria: Yeah. And I'm noticing that it seems like there are more kind of buddy movies of older women coming out, and some of them have some good aspects, but a lot of them are just kind of goofy, cutesy. Yeah, kind of goofy, kind of cutesy.

Erin: Look at these wild ladies doing these wild things that are age inappropriate. Like, that's the thesis, right? And there's only six actresses that they let do those movies.

Dr. Maria: The core group.

Erin: Yeah.

Dr. Maria: I mean, which I love those actresses.

Erin: They're fucking amazing. But, like, come on, guys. Like, there's so many talented people out there whose stories aren't being told, whose truths aren't being told. And, you know, that's. That's hopefully what, what hotter than ever will continue to try to do in all media because it's so important. We're such the glue that holds the culture together and family together. And there's so many opportunities for us as we age to really make an impact and to be viable and visible and seen. So I'm so grateful for your work.

I want to ask you one more question, which is, what do you want the hotter than ever listeners to know about what their options and choices are around how they handle and plan for and think about aging at this stage in their lives over 40, like, what options and choices could they make now that will impact their aging first?

Dr. Maria: And this is going to be so academic, and I apologize in advance. You do. You do. You stop. Especially women in this age group, 40 to 60, whatever, and hopefully, younger folks, stop worrying so much about what everybody else thinks that you should be doing. Continue to know yourself. Continue to educate yourself. Don't listen to the folks that tell you.

I'm going to use a personal example. Oh, you seem to be going through some hormonal changes. Here's an antidepressant. You'll be fine. Question. Do not accept the first answer you get if it doesn't feel right in your gut. You're the one in charge of your self, your wellness, your happiness. Given the conversation we had, that, yes, we are dealing with some crazy societal notions.

But it was a hard lesson for me to learn that no one's going to come up to me and say, oh, you, dear. You're feeling anxious, you're feeling overwhelmed. Let me fix it for you. It's like, no, I was the one that had to kind of start setting my boundaries in a healthy way, in a loving way, in a compassionate way. But your aging journey is yours, and so don't apologize for it. Keep learning. Give yourself grace. Because this isn't a linear journey, just like you said, Erin.

It's all over the place. And that's okay. It doesn't have to look like a certain formula. But I think educating ourselves is super important. And don't be shy to open up, whether that's as an anonymous poster on Facebook group that you find that is really helpful or listening to podcasts. Don't feel like you're going through this journey by yourself, even though it's a very unique journey to your experience. You know, we're all kind of walking in our own way, but we're on the same path. I guess that's the little metaphor that I'm.

That I'm thinking of. And so fear I can understand, but there's no room for fear. We have to just be brave and go forth and. And figure it out and not be apologetic about wanting to be happy and whole. Yeah. And I'm gonna play this back to myself anytime.

Erin: That's right. That's right. Anytime I'm feeling like, oh, woe is.

Dr. Maria: Me, I'm gonna play this back.

Erin: Yeah. Thank you, Maria. That is words to live by. Words to age by.

Dr. Maria: Oh, I love that. Words to age. Bye. See, that's why you're the creative in this.

Erin: All right. I so appreciate you.

Dr. Maria: Thank you so much. Bye.

Erin: Thanks for listening to Hotter Than Ever. If you loved this conversation with Dr. Maria Carpiac, please share it with your friends and say, Hey, remember The Golden Girls? Well, that's us now forward the episode from inside your Apple podcast app or Spotify, wherever you listen, share it with a friend.

Start the dialogue, are we aging better than The Golden Girls? What part of their life and dynamic seems appealing to you today? For me, it's the living with a bunch of friends cause it seems so fun, maybe annoying, but also really? Probably a net good as opposed to Annette Bening, what is happening right now?

Anyway, you can find out more about this and other episodes of our show on Substack at hotterthanever.substack.com or @hotterthaneverpod on Instagram. Comment on our posts, drop us a note, get involved in the conversation. Aging well, like, what does that look like for you?

Hotter Than Ever is produced by Erica Gerard and pod kit productions. Our associate producer is Melody Carey. Music is by Chris Keating with vocals by Issa Fernandez. I will talk to you next week hotties go out there and get some of that animal print. It really, really makes you feel alive.