Erin: Welcome to Hotter Than Ever, where we uncover the unconscious rules we've been following. We break those rules and we find a new path to being freer, happier, sexier, and more self expressed. I'm your host, Erin Keating. I want to say a special shout out to people who have just found this podcast. Welcome to the conversation. Welcome to Hotter than ever. I hope you enjoy what you hear. I hope it resonates with you and means something to you and gives you some sense of freedom and possibility for your life over 40 and to the people, the beautiful hotties who listen every week.
I am so glad to have you here, and it is great to see you. Well, not see you, but I feel your presence and your support, and I am grateful for all of it. I want to share an exciting thing with you, which is that I am doing my first live show in 20 years. So I used to be a writer performer. I used to get up on stage and say funny things. I had sketch groups. I did all this stuff when I was young, before I found my career with a capital c. And like with a lot of things in my life, I am returning to the things that used to light me up in my teens and twenties.
Sex and performing and expressing myself and being pretty outspoken and out there in the world. So the incarnation that that is taking for me is a show called Swipe Club. It is a live show about dating online over 40, and I made it with my friend, the talented and charismatic Amber J. Lawson. It is going to be a really fun, informative, and empowering night out here in Los Angeles. If you happen to be in town on July 19, it is at the Crow Theater in the Bergamot Station Arts complex on the west side on Friday, July 19 at 08:00 p.m. you can get tickets@crowcomedy.com or you can look for all the details in the hotter than ever newsletter. I could not be more psyched about this. I'm nervous as fuck. Whoa. I'm doing it, though. I'm doing it. I'm doing it for you. Okay.
Today I talk to Ophira Eisenberg. Ophira is a stand up comedian, writer, and host of the award winning podcast parenting is a joke, which is a delight, and you should definitely listen to it. If you're an NPR listener, you may have heard her as the host of the NPR game show Ask me another, which she did for years and years. If you're a stand up fan, you may have seen her on the Late Late show or Comedy Central. You may have seen her live at a comedy club if you go out to shows, because she is literally everywhere. She also tells stories with the moth, wrote a memoir called screw everyone. Sleeping my way to monogamy. It's so good. And her recent comedy special, Plant based jokes, is streaming on YouTube. So much of what Ophira and I talk about in this conversation is the constant creative and professional pivot required of a career in the arts.
And, yes, being a comedian is an art form. We also talk about what happens to that life, which is shaky to begin with when you add motherhood on top of it. We talk about how our culture conspires to make so many of the big systemic problems in the world into personal ones, like, oh, women are just not being positive enough. You have to be grateful, really be in gratitude of that cup of tea this morning. Don't. Don't forget about, you know, the fact that women don't make the same amount of money as men do. Oh, God. Gotta laugh or else you'll cry. Anyway, her take on that is both profound and hilarious. Let's listen.
Ophira Eisenberg, welcome to Hotter Than Ever.
Ophira: Ah, thanks, Erin. So nice to see you.
Erin: So nice to have you here. As you know, we have known each other for a very long time.
Ophira: True.
Erin: And back from back in the day when we were both starting out in New York. And I have been a fan and admirer of yours for so long. And it has been truly my delight to watch your career expand and blossom in so many directions. I'm just gonna list all the things you do. Cause probably no one ever gives you this reflection. Ready? Stand up. Storytelling.
Ophira: Correct.
Erin: Hosting. Writing. One person shows, podcasting.
Ophira: True.
Erin: Am I missing anything?
Ophira: I moderate panels and interview people.
Erin: Moderate panels and interview people. Yeah. You are the queen of the pivot. I see you are stressed.
Ophira: Is that in there?
Erin: Are you stressed out?
Ophira: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Erin: Well, I see you from the outside. I don't see your nervous system, but you're so endlessly resourceful at finding ways to get your voice out there. And I just want to talk about what your journey has been like as a comic, as an artist, and then we can dig into all the particulars.
Ophira: Sure. Sounds great. I feel honored. Do you?
Erin: Good.
Ophira: Am I alive at my own funeral? Is that what this is? When people better, you get to keep going.
Erin: So I would love to hear, and I think the audience would love to here what your journey has been like, because it's an unusual career that you have.
Ophira: It is true. And I can never decide, truly, if maybe everyone does this. Like, was it the right thing to do? I don't mean that in an existential way, but I just mean that just, as you pointed out, I wear all these different hats. And from one point of view, you can go, oh, that's great, like, diversify your portfolio. Right?
Erin: Yeah.
Ophira: And then from another point of view, people really need people to be one thing. It's confusing to them if you can do other things. It's actually, sometimes I feel like it can work against you, because I still meet people in the world that know me from NPR, and they had no idea I did stand up. It doesn't even occur to them. And I get it. Those things seem very, very far apart from each other.
Erin: Where would they have found you if you weren't out there performing?
Ophira: Yeah. I mean, but now there's. Now they're coming to a show, and they're like, oh, I know you, but I had no idea you did stand up. And it's sort of funny that just generally we don't make those jumps. Yeah. And they're like, when did you start stand up? I'm like, no, no, no. I always did stand up.
Erin: I was a host, and then I realized I was funny.
Ophira: Did it work? Yeah, yeah, right. Exactly. As I was just saying to you before we hopped on this thing, like, I know a doctor who is now taking an improv class, and that wasn't my journey. I wasn't doing one thing. And then I was like, you know what? Maybe I'll try stand up. It was like, that's where I kind of started. Or actually, you know, I think I started as a writer or someone who wanted to write, and some of what I was writing just seemed to end up going more in the comedy realm than in, you know, fiction or even.
Erin: So you sort of followed the breadcrumbs of your own inspiration.
Ophira: Yeah.
Erin: And then you moved to New York to be a comic.
Ophira: I moved to New York to be a comic. Yeah. It was definitely an experiment. And because I'm bullheaded, I didn't pull the plug. I just kept going. So. But things happened around me in the New York scene, which were exciting, and really one of those things was the explosion of the storytelling scene, which.
Erin: Yeah. So for the listeners who don't know what that is, because this is a podcast about empowering women over 40.
Ophira: Yeah.
Erin: You know, because of my background, I love to talk to comedians and artists and storytellers but I think people don't know, like, maybe they've seen the Moth podcast. Maybe the Moth podcast. Yeah, but talk about what the moth is and what a story slam is and what that was like to get up on stage in that new world when you had been telling jokes.
Ophira: Yeah. And I think the trend, so I think when we think about stand up, we think of a lot of great standups who were storytellers. But the trend in New York in early two thousands, as far as what people were doing in stand up comedy, was jokes. It was one liners. It was like, very much short little jokes. So if you had longer narrative pieces or things that were stories, people were, like, not into it. Like, that was just not what was cool.
Erin: Not done.
Ophira: Yeah, it was not done. And so a lot of us had these bigger pieces. And actually, for me, I had pieces that were just funny dating stories, for example. But then I had some stuff that was more serious and really didn't know what to do with it. So there were solo show classes out there, because there was also a thing where someone would throw up an hour or maybe 90 minutes solo show about their life, beginning, middle, and end. And somehow with all of this short form, storytelling became its own stage. And the one that I think many people were doing it, but the one that became the most prominent was the moth. And they ran a story slam, which I'll just explain in a minute.
Ophira: But anyways, it was, it was in the lower east side. It was at a venue that did.
Erin: Slam poetry, the new Eureka, poets Cafe.
Ophira: Poets Cafe, which was a great venue. And they would basically say, okay, the theme for tonight is betrayal, let's say. And then people would come to this night, nobody knew what was gonna happen. It was just excitement in the air like nothing I'd ever seen before. And instead of the audience being filled with random people, for lack of a better descriptor, it was filled with artists and writers and people that worked in television and people that worked in theater. And it was a really artistic crowd.
Erin: That's my crushiest crowd. I get the biggest crush on the moth audience.
Ophira: Oh, it's amazing. And. Cause that's just the whole ethos. It kind of created and grew, and then people would throw their name in the hat with the hope of being picked to tell a five minute, like, true narrative story from their life. That had to do with the theme roughly. And it could be funny, it could be sad, it could be horrifying. It could be a tear jerker. It could be whatever you want.
You just have five minutes to do it, and it was incredible. And somehow we all stuck to the time and, well, because there would be.
Erin: Like, a cello that would pay you off, right?
Ophira: There would be like a violin or a cello or a bell or something like that. But it was sort of done. I felt like that contract was just what everyone agreed to worked anyways. And, you know, I still host these slams because now they are all over the country. All over the world, I think, but definitely all over the country. And they run monthly. And I will say that now. The moth grew into many more live shows, and then it grew into a mainstage aspect where it would be ten minute more curated stories, and then it grew.
It was a podcast, and then it became a radio show, and it wanted a Peabody and a McCarthy and just celebrated. And it's extremely popular. But I think there's sometimes this misconception. I've had many people just say to me, like, how do I get a job with the moth? And I'm like, you mean for fundraising or communications, like, in their office, because there's no job with the moth. Sure. You would like to tell a story on that stage. I get that.
Erin: Right.
Ophira: So. But I lucked out one of the few lucky things in my life, and there are not a lot of them, which was just exciting, which was to be in a room with people as something grew. Like, I remember when they were like, we're going to do a podcast, and I didn't even know what a pod. Like, I was like a podcast. Let me get this straight. You're going to stick a microphone into a computer and talk to it and throw it out there and it's completely uncurated. Like, who's going to listen to that garbage?
Erin: Right, right.
Ophira: I not knowing, like, oh, this is exactly what's gonna be everybody, everything, right?
Erin: There will soon be 3 million podcasts.
Ophira: Yeah. And they needed hosts. They needed hosts to guide the experience. So it became, I was in their.
Erin: Regular kind of pool, and then was NPR as a result of that? Do you think you got on their radar as a result of that?
Ophira: You don't? Surprisingly, no. But there was a connection because as they were developing, what ended up being, ask me another, they were piloting it, I guess, for a couple years, and they didn't really figure it out, but their audio engineer was the same audio engineer who did the slams. And just out of coincidence, they said, as he told me, they said, we, you know, for two years, they were casting. They're like, we've seen every stand up comic in New York?
Erin: And he was like, really nummy.
Ophira: Yeah. And they were like, what about Fira? And they were like, we don't know Fara. She was like. He was like, oh, yeah, she's. You know, I was in this person's ears monthly for years, and they were the person that suggested me, and I got a call from a producer there that was like, hey, do you want to come in and audition? They'd never auditioned anyone for anything before. They didn't. That was just not how it went. This whole thing was, like, kind of a new idea.
And it was the only thing in my entertainment career where someone said to me, what college did you go to? I was like, what? It was like, wow, that's a. Why? Why do you need to know? What if I said no college?
Erin: But, yeah, not hired. Not hired. Not NPR. Pedigree.
Ophira: So it's so funny that I really. I do that, just so stuck out gorgeous and still remember it.
Erin: Well, that's gorgeous. Because those of us who were academic achievers, you know, we want to feel like that meant something. We worked really hard to get to those colleges.
Ophira: It's true. Absolutely. I worked really hard to get to my college, even though it was.
Erin: I want to fast forward a little bit to what it's like being a mom and a comic, because that's what your current incarnation is all about, right? I mean, you've been a mom for a minute, but talking about the experience of being a woman, being a comic, being a mother, and how those things all fit together when we live in a culture where I. Moms are judged so harshly, women are judged so harshly. Women aren't supposed to be funny. There's that endless, boring conversation about, are women funny? Like what?
Ophira: Continuous. Moving on, continuous and honestly revive. I think the I think part, at least we used to ask the question. I think now there's a huge amount of people that have just settled on no. And they're done.
Erin: That's fine. You don't need everyone to like you.
Ophira: Yeah. At least for a while it was like, well, I don't know. Maybe we should give it a chance. And now it's just no. Which is hilarious. Or is it hilarious? So I started this podcast called parenting is a joke, partially because I had this kid and because it was never really in my idea of my life to be a mother, I really, and I came at it late. So I hadn't ever conceptualized what it would be like in so many ways. Like, I will just tell you right off the bat, naively, you know, I thought I was going to bounce back and just go to work like I did before.
Ophira: I never, ever thought about just the mere aspect of spending time with my child. I just assumed I would bring this human into the world and then screw off and follow my career again.
Erin: I don't not relate to that. Like, I had twins at a moment, which was, like, really the biggest job of my career. It was the job I had been working for for 15 years. And then I got pregnant because I was old and I had to work hard at that. And then I got pregnant, and then I was like, oh, now I have to do all the things.
Ophira: Things. Yeah, okay. So. And I looked around and, I mean, I looked around in the comedy community, and all of a sudden I noticed that, well, first I noticed that a lot of the men that I had been working with for years were fathers. And I was like, wow, I never knew that. So that was automatically just like, there's, that's just, you know, the gender inequity of how mom's the burden and just.
Erin: All how the jobs, well, they could just go around being a dad forever and you would not even know a mom. Like, it's real clear that everybody's aware of it, right?
Ophira: So then I'm looking at the other moms going, well, how did they do it? And that was just the kind of question that I was opening up to explore in a podcast and have some fun conversation about it. And unfortunately, thus far, the answer is hire people. Like, the answer is not actually, I figured out everyone has a little bit of a hack of like, oh, I figured out that I have to use this kind of time like this, or it's a bit of a mess. And I have to accept kind of a lower standard across the board for, you know, anything from, like, making meals to house cleaning or. You know what I've just decided it is a one man. It's like a, it's a family band, and we all do this together, and that's the end of it. And it's super complicated and not perfect, but mostly it's. I am privileged enough to hire people.
Erin: Wow.
Ophira: Yeah.
Erin: So, like, nannies, babysitters.
Ophira: Nannies, babysitters. I mean, if you're lucky, you have extended family that can really step up. But many people do not. I do not.
Erin: No, I never. Yeah.
Ophira: Yeah. So then I just find, like, there's. So it irks me a little bit. And I had. I've had some great conversations with some super smart people who, you know, we just come back to how this great tension between what we want to do as women, like most of us, have to work just because a two income situation, if you're lucky enough to have that, is what is going to be able to drive you to be able to pay for yourself. To live in this society with a child, you have to have income coming in, so you're both working, but as a woman, there's no support for, for you. It's just literally, you know, it's like the standard you expect to, when you're at work, you expect to be to put out 100%, and when you're at home as a mom, 100% and no transition in between. I always talk about how I want those chambers scuba divers go into to prevent them from having the bands when they come up quickly.
Erin: Oh, my God. Like a transition zone.
Ophira: Transition zone. Because the little, the moment between I am mom and now I have to throw on my heels and some makeup and go out and be stand up comic. Like these things are. They're completely different. I wouldn't say they're completely different people, but they're totally different feelings of, I'm not putting out on stage the mom I am at home. It doesn't make any sense.
Erin: Right. So you have to live in, like, a duality that most people do not have to. Although I think everyone has their own version of it. Everyone has yours is just really heightened. I. Because you have to go put on a show every night.
Ophira: Go put on a show. And it's a very different, like, but I was thinking the other day, I was like, oh, my God. I go from taking care of one audience to taking care of another audience.
Erin: But their well being is in your hands.
Ophira: Yeah. And the touring in the night is a very specific thing, and that is, you know, that is specific to people in entertainment. But I also know a lot of people whose hours, whatever their job is, is at night, or it's long, like, or they're working with different time zones now, and it's increasingly hard yet, Aaron, anything out there that you're looking at is still talking about these nine to five jobs that nobody has.
Erin: Right.
Ophira: I do not get why it's like, it doesn't. I always feel like what is out there is.
Erin: What do you mean? Hours behind?
Ophira: Like, if you buy a book, if you buy a book on, like, hey, I'm a new mom, and, like, uh, you know, even if it's like the career mom, like, it's just still talking to you. Like, you have banking hours.
Erin: Yeah.
Ophira: There's an ongoing thing about. Yeah. And perfect mornings, perfect mornings are always like, get up an hour before your kid and, you know, and I'm like, so I have 3 hours of sleep because I'm coming home late.
Erin: Yeah, totally. That's on my dating life, coming home late and I'm getting up early and that's, that's price. Yeah.
Ophira: And then people look at you with sad eyes and go, you must be exhausted. And you're like, yeah, don't do that.
Erin: That's so rude. I think it's like it's a heightened version of the double bind that we're, we're in as women who want to live outside the domestic sphere, you know, and women whose primary identity is not mom. Right. Like, I am this and a mom, you know, and I never wanted to stay at home. I had someone at my, when I was working in television say to me, I bet, you know, you're gonna have those kids and you're gonna always want to stay home with them. And I don't even know if you'll come back from maternity leave. And I was like, I'm sorry, have we met? Like, do you not see me? Do you not see my ambition? Do you not see how passionate I am about this? This is what I've been building my whole life.
Ophira: Yeah, I don't think that would have been the right thing. My mother, you know, was a stay at home mom, and she always wanted a career. I mean, on to the end. She told me that all the time. And she was so capable and so she ran the house, kind of like a career. I mean, it was spotless. She cooked everything. There was always a project.
She'd look around and be like, now I'm going to do this. Now I'm going to. It was just consistent. She really, and she knew how to sew and, I mean, everything was like that, but she really was hardcore about, like, have a career. I didn't have a career that, and she wanted it. The idea of a job just, she was so, that was such a thing that kind of ate at her, I think, the idea of that, and just didn't have that opportunity and because she was smart and capable and then, right, just, and not that she didn't love raising kids, but she was, she was also kind of excited when I left, the youngest of six, she was like, oh, my God, go. And now I'm going to have a life. And she did. She did.
Erin: Oh, good. I'm happy for her. I'm happy that she'd manifested that because, you know, she does. Yeah.
Ophira: Yeah. She didn't have a lot of money, but she did with it what she could, so. And I joke that I think if I was a stay at home mom, I probably would have been a stay at home alcoholic, because I feel like there were, like, what would have been my outlet? Because it's, you know, I think as the kids get older, obviously your challenges are different and they are more independent. They need less from you.
Erin: Yeah.
Ophira: And I think, yeah, I just think in the beginning, I sort of wish in hindsight, but who knows, that I did give myself more time to maybe take care of myself because I pushed myself really hard to get back out there, not understanding that it was like, I think I was just too tough on myself. And it probably would have benefited everybody if I would have just taken a sec. But there's something, too, about the entertainment career where it's just like, gotta keep going, gotta keep going. Can't, like, fall off the booking list, can't fall off the right or disappear.
Erin: There's 30 women in line to take your spot because there's only one spot woman on a lineup. I totally relate to that. I felt like I could not, I could not take time out of my career because I had the same thing. I had a great job that a lot of people would have wanted. People were always sort of circling.
Ophira: Yeah.
Erin: You know, and I wanted to keep it and I wanted to grow it. And also I had this sense that if I stepped out financially, I would never be able to step back because I needed to make enough money to cover the childcare, to make it worth it to stay working.
Ophira: Yes.
Erin: And then I. And if you take that time out, then you, you lose those earning years, and then you're already behind. I mean, it just. It's so brutally unfair. So brutally unfair. The compromises we make, mothers make.
Ophira: Yeah. And I don't really know a way around it. Like, I still don't. I was kind of hoping at this point, after talking to, you know, whatever, 80, 80 parents, some of the men, like my, when I talk to people for the podcast, some of them are fathers for sure, that I would get. I would, there would be like, a little bit of a nugget of like, aha, this is, this is the, this whatever this is. This is the way around it. But no, the answer is no to that. Norway is maybe the answer.
Erin: Right. I think this is actually a good pivot into a conversation we were having before the podcast, which is how our culture makes everything the problem of the individual when the systems are set up in such a way to disadvantage you. So I think about, like, I used to work at Snapchat, and, you know, people complain, is social media so addictive? And the. The product is built to addict you, but the addiction is your fault, right. Your problem. And you just need to put timers on, and you just need to really watch that, and you need to put that phone down an hour before bed, and you need to. You need to, you know, it's all on you. When that's right, they're profiting.
Erin: Snapchat and every other platform that that is social media, they're profiting from, you know, the intended effects of their product.
Ophira: Absolutely. No, I mean, I think that's the general. You know, a lot of what's going on, and I could get deep into this conspiracy theory kind of thinking. That's what I call it. I'm not saying that's what it is. That's just what I call it to be a little self deprecating, because maybe actually, Aaron, maybe I'm right, but I look across a lot of what's.
Erin: The aliens did build the pyramids.
Ophira: Yeah, exactly. Like, part of me, I mean, you know, I'll just throw it out there, and I. Some listener can tell me I'm wrong. I look at the legalization of weed, and I think part of it is because the substance is not harmful. And we've, like, figured that out. I think some of it is like, yes, we need to stop putting people in jail for possession of weed. That is like, a complete. It's racist, usually.
And it's also a complete misuse of, you know, what people who are defending the law, let's just say, should be doing with their time.
Erin: Right?
Ophira: And then there's another part of me of. Or is it like, hey, everybody get high and placate your, like, get nice and placated and don't worry while we take everything from you, or we continue.
Erin: To give you nothing or less. Yeah.
Ophira: But you're cool because you've got some. Two. You got ten milligrams of edibles that you can buy down the street, so, you know, you're cool.
Erin: Yeah. Oh, it's the brave new world theory. Yeah. For sure.
Ophira: For sure. Yes. So. And then I just feel like I was saying Norway, because I guess there is a stand up scene.
Erin: That is how funny can possibly be.
Ophira: I know they're flourishing. I remember a friend of mine moved there who was an improv, big improv person, moved there to work a different kind of writing job, and she was like, it's amazing here. Such a good quality of life. I feel completely at peace with stuff. If you, like, feels so good, you walk here, things are easy. Like, things are taken care of. There's this community. Da da da. She goes, but no, nothing's fun. No funny. There's no funny.
Erin: Yeah.
Ophira: And I was like, yeah. I mean, can that be taught?
Erin: Ludafisk is only funny out of context.
Ophira: Right, right. And one of the things that I loved when I moved to America from, I'm canadian, one of the things I loved is that, you know, unless you're at a hockey game, I think it's hard pressed to find a canadian that is like, woohoo. Like that kind of person. But America is 100% woohoo.
Erin: Yes.
Ophira: That. It's like, woohoo place. And in the beginning, I was like, this is intoxicating because it feels so great. It feels so great to be like, yeah. Enthusiastic. Come on, let's do it. Positivity. High five.
Erin: Come.
Ophira: Like, I was, like, into it.
Erin: Yeah.
Ophira: But now I see it from a different perspective, Erin. Now that I see that, so little, I guess so little attention is put towards social structures and larger national programs that could support people. I go, oh, I get it. So we all have to be positive because it's all in our power, right? Manifest your success. Yeah, that's right. It's all up to me. It's not my fault that I like the fact that I didn't get a. I'm just throwing something out. Didn't get a promotion because I'm a woman. That's my fault because they didn't manifest.
Erin: Didn't work hard enough.
Ophira: I didn't work hard enough. Yeah, yeah. Probably didn't smile. So I think that reverse of putting, and that happens to moms all the time. They're like, oh, yeah, your kid has a learning disability. What did you eat when you were pregnant? I mean, it will go that far.
Erin: Oh, my God. Yeah. Tell me other things that you've uncovered there in the mom verse, which you're now a part of.
Ophira: In the momvers. Well, I will tell you that I talked Liz Tennady, who hosts the Motherly podcast and I believe is even the co creator of that entire world community website. We were talking, and she said something so interesting to me that is along this level, which she's like, why don't we have the female? Benjamin Franklin, why don't we have the female? I mean, even Elon musk to throw out a dirty word, but it's like, did we make no space for them because of just gender inequity in general, but also because of motherhood.
Erin: Right.
Ophira: You know, there's these great minds out there that were never even given the opportunity. Forget about who's taking credit and all that, right. Of just, like, having the space to do it. Like, we missed. We missed it, right.
Erin: Well, and we only recently have access to credit and birth control. And I think that those two things, our own money and birth control, are what is going to create the next Benjamin Franklin.
Ophira: Absolutely. And as someone who took birth control responsibly. Okay. From the time I was 16, judge away. I don't care. Until basically very responsible.
Erin: Who's judging?
Ophira: Yeah. And, yeah, no, just some people. Like 16. Yeah. That's when I was sexually active. So good luck, everybody. I had a good time, all right. Till about 40, you know, I was married and weren't quite into having a baby, but that was actually when I went through breast cancer and breast cancer surgery.
So I did get off birth control, but it was right around that. And I will tell you that I guess it was Canada. And I just didn't think. I can't even believe how accessible it was. I can't even believe that, like, anyone not having access to that just. I cannot believe we step backwards so hard. So hard.
Erin: I'm curious about why you think that is. Because I feel like Gen X is the most powerful generation of women to have ever lived. Right. And we are now coming into our full agency. We are leading organizations. We are super successful. We have our own money. Our kids are grown for the most part.
Like, if you're in your fifties, sixties, and you're still working, you're still doing your work out there in the world, you are single minded. You are focused as fuck. And that's scary to see how much agency we have and how much we can actually do and impact.
Ophira: Yeah, I hope we can impact. Sometimes I feel like there's a lot of incredible voices out there saying smart, reasonable, great things. And they are.
Erin: And I think we don't connect the dots between insights and policy. Like, I think that's where that's the connection that's broken is that the policymakers are broken. Like that whole system of, like, how we're actually enabled to impact change in the country. Like, all those functions are broken. So, yes. Yeah, we're all out here screaming about, you know, equity and how empowerment and liberation, you know, all of this, and the systems conspire to not allow us to make change. But I still. I have to believe that we are.
Erin: And we can.
Ophira: Yeah. And I think that. Right. It's. It's like it's breadcrumbs. That's the word. And obviously, there's so much instability in the world right now. Specific also to impending changes in government.
Changes coming up with doom. That's the word I'm circling around. I mean, there are plenty of people. There are plenty of women out there who are very strongly and saying that, you know, I'm not no kid by choice. I applaud those people. What's funny is that I go, that was me. I mean, I called on the rooftops of the.
Erin: I'm not having kids. Yeah.
Ophira: I am not having kids. And I had a host of reasons. Sane, correct.
Erin: Yeah.
Ophira: May I say correct. Reasons of all the things that everyone says. And even more. Even more, you know, and part of it. Part of it was just personal. Part of it was like, why not just have a great life without it? Part of it was like, how do I do this career? Like, I made the choice of the career that means I cannot have a child. And because of what this just the logistics of the career, I mean, there was just so many factors. And then I changed my mind, which you may also say is the most female quality of all of.
Erin: Well, we change. We're not fixed. We change, we evolve. We grow. I mean, Lord knows I don't want what I wanted in my twenties. No, like, I want it. I want something different.
Ophira: Yeah. I don't judge anyone with tattoos. Cause if you figure that out, I'm actually in awe of you. But I know that I couldn't, like, my ideas of what I wanted to ink on my body when I was 18. I'm, like, thankful every day that I did not get a sun and a moon on my ankle. Okay.
Erin: I got my belly button pierced because I knew I was too fickle to get a tattoo that I would like forever. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ophira: Nothing was meaningful to me on that level. Like, and people that have done it, I'm sort of like, that is so beautiful. I'm literally jealous of them.
Erin: Yeah.
Ophira: Like, how do you know you like something so much? What's that like?
Erin: Yeah.
Ophira: Anyhow, yeah.
Erin: I love your critique of this culture of forced positivity and gratitude and manifestation. Can you talk a little bit about your cultural critique kind of project that you do out there in the world?
Ophira: Sure. Great. I'd love to. And I want to do. I want to do more of it. I'm actually. I'm hoping to do, like, a yemenite, literally an art installation of it sometime, maybe in the fall. Basically, a lot of people talk about now toxic positivity, but you may have noticed, depending on how old you are, but I think your audience is perfect, that something like positive affirmations were almost like a prescription in the past.
It was almost like, you're in a really low point. Maybe you should read a Dale Carnegie book. I don't know, whatever. Like, yeah, exactly. And, you know, there was these sort of whispers of like, oh, I have a post it note. I have a post it note on my mirror that says, you know, today's a great day or you are worthy or whatever. And it was, you know, like kind of this sort of private thing. And then I can't quite, quite pinpointed, but I'm going to say somewhere post pandemic now with the sort of yoga world and Buddhism light, as I say, sweeping America, that was happening.
Ophira: Two thousands. Whatever. Shantae, Shanta. There was more of this wellness. So there's eastern philosophy kind of dipping its toes into lululemon pants and, you know, it's all being reimagined.
Erin: I think you get the free people athleisure brand when you join that chocolate and peanut butter.
Ophira: Yeah. I used to have a joke about how I went to yoga class and my top, my bra only had two straps and I realized that was like an amateur move that the more straps you have on your back, if it.
Erin: Looks like a spiderweb, you're really a yoga to Nirvana.
Ophira: Yeah, you must be higher up because I would be like, that person has 27 straps. That must mean something.
Erin: Yeah, she's super evolved.
Ophira: She's super evolved. So, you know, and then. But then all of a sudden I just felt like one day I walked out into the world and I was like, there's positive affirmations in fonts framed that you can buy or someone has done it independently and they're in my coffee shop in the bookstore. Every single journal has one on the front. You're hard pressed to just find like a graphic design. They are in clothing stores. All of a sudden, gratitude journals are being, I mean, very marketed at women. Just like gratitude journal.
Be thankful. Be thankful every day. Be thankful. In a way. Honestly, I do not think that's marketed to men. And my joke, a little bit of that is because what is a man going to say? You're welcome. Like, it's just, it's a different relationship. It is all for women to be like, I'm supposed to be thankful for the small morsels that society has given me and every day I just have to be like, oh, my goodness.
Like, I remember someone saying to me, do a gratitude journal. And I'm not completely against it. I get it. Count your blessings. I get it. This world is fleeting, and every day could be something tragic. I've been there. I riddled with tragedy. People I know from trauma.
Erin: Yeah, you're coming also.
Ophira: Yeah, exactly. Also, when someone once said to me, write in gratitude journal. And I literally said, about what? And they said, write that, you know, if you had a nice cup of tea, write that you really enjoyed your tea. And I was like, oh, no. Oh, no, no, no. This is bad. This is bad. That's not.
No, that is, like, to me, like, you're. It's almost like we're. Like, you're saying, like, don't give up your power. Don't give up your power. And be like, I'm grateful to the tea. So now we're done. Like, you have to be in a little bit of a state of, like, this tea should be better. Like, there's got to be a little bit of that.
Erin: There should be more than tea.
Ophira: Yeah, there should be more than tea. Yeah, exactly.
Erin: Yeah.
Ophira: And so. But I feel like it. It makes. It's. This whole culture is. It's just of that positivity. It's a little bit like, putting the onus on you and also, like, don't do anything. Like, I really was like, when does wellness and self care just become lazy? Like, you're not doing anything.
You're just spending all of your time, like, introspective and, you know, lying, you know, taking care of yourself. I'm not saying don't do it, but it's like, it's gone, too. Wait, it's gone up the defense.
Erin: Right. So it's. It's all this sort of, what's the word? Solipsism. Like, you're. You're just inward facing and your frame of reference so much. I did go to a nice college, and this is where these things come in handy. Yeah. You're just looking inward and you're just in a system of reference to yourself constantly.
Erin: But don't. Don't look up. And out.
Ophira: Don't look up. Exactly.
Erin: Yeah. Yeah. So what is it that you do to counter this culture of toxic positivity?
Ophira: You have an art project. I do have an art project, but just one thing I want to say. My mother, she's passed, and she was a very positive person. Yeah, but I remember having. Yeah, I remember having this kind of conversation with her, and she was saying, she goes, when things are hard. You're not supposed to turn inside. You're supposed to go help people. She goes, taking care of yourself.
Go help people. That's what's going to make you. And I was like, that's part of the problem. Go help people. Anyhow, I'm not saying I'm perfect. I'm not saying I do it all, but it's just so what I do is every time I see one of these very trite framed from Michael's or home goods or whatever positive affirmation that are everywhere, I take a post it note and I write a f, you statement.
Erin: Please say exactly what you write.
Ophira: Oh, I write things like, I mean, I'll say, you know, it will be like, you're in charge of your destiny. And I'll write, like, or is it the fucking patriarchy? And then I'll stick it on the thing in public in a target store, in a cafe, so someone will find it. A coffee shop. And then I will take a photo of it, and then I will post it on Instagram. And I've been. It actually started, I was at an Airbnb, and I was in a really low state. It was like this thing where we booked this little trip to, like, whatever, South Jersey, the Jersey shore, the little summer trip. And we had an Airbnb.
And it was, you know, one of these Airbnbs that no one's ever lived in. It was completely. It was bought and staged for the point of just being a vacation rental. And when we got there, right before we got there, we got some really tragic news that we were processing, and we're in this Airbnb on this, like, lovely supposed beach vacation, and we're just, like, grappling with the state of our lives. And this place had a little wood cut out in a cursive font that said relax, and it bothered, and they more of that. And that just. It got. I was just like, go fuck yourself.
So I just wrote it and posted it on and took a photo, and then there was another one in. In the bedroom, and I was like, oh, God damn. Don't fucking tell me how to think. Breathe. Breathe. Yeah, it was. Breathe that I was like, I'm. I'm just trying to fucking exhale.
And I just wrote it and posted it. And immediately, you know, whatever, it was just for fun and. But people just dug it. And then, you know, it was this relief of finding out I was posting it just as a catharsis. Like, this was just my catharsis, but people responded to it and also feel the same. Right. They just. A lot of people feel the same that they are.
It's a little bit of a zombie world of, like, manifest your success, believe you are worthy. And then, you know, we're just kind of tweaking around them, going like, that's not how you do it. It's never gonna be enough. Yeah, relax. You fucking relax. I'm trying to get some happening.
Erin: I'm grateful for that point of view because, you know, I am a believer in journaling and visualization and all of that stuff. I've always had vision boards and all of these things. I always say I'm woo adjacent. I'm like, yeah, not fully in on the woo, but, like, I will get my chart read every five years. Like, you know, I love that stuff, too.
Ophira: Yeah, I love it. I love it. But I think, you know, obviously I don't need to tell you that you're smart. You're smart. And so I feel like you can have a, you know, that's like organizing your goals and organizing your thoughts and putting them in a format that feels interesting to you, like a vision board or. I mean, I. I'm a list maker. I have goal lists everywhere.
And I, you know, I. Sometimes, because things are tough, sometimes you do have to get up in the morning and look in the mirror and go like, okay, we're going to do this. And kind of talk yourself into a frame of mind to do it. I just don't want someone else telling me.
Erin: Well. And profiting off of that, too, where it's.
Ophira: And I don't. Yeah, I don't think any woman wants to be told to relax.
Erin: No. That's the perfect way to get in a fight with your husband, is whenever they tell you to relax, I'll show you fucking relaxed.
Ophira: Isn't that interesting? That is so true.
Erin: Yeah.
Ophira: That is so true, that. Yeah. So I feel like anytime, and you know what? I'm a little. I'm hard on people. I've been told that before. I'm hard on my friends, sometimes expect too much people, blah, blah, blah. Okay. Ideally, rise up.
Erin: Yep.
Ophira: No, but I've gone through, you know, like I mentioned, cancer diagnosis, some really tough things. And that's when you see how poorly equipped most of us are with communicating empathy, saying how afraid everyone is, how bad we are. Kind of like we don't know how to show up. We know how to say believe, but we don't know. Or, like, if you need anything, let me know as you're backing out the door, running down the street, please. I hope you never, you know, like, I mean, I don't know if anyone. That's a great intention. If you, if you need anything, let.
Ophira: Let me know. It's very passive, and it's. That's just related to I don't know what to do.
Erin: Right. I'd rather have someone show up and be like, hey, I love you. I don't know what to say right now. Like, yeah, I want to show up for you. I don't know how to do that. Like, but just know that that's, that's where I'm at, and I feel for you, and, like, you know, let's maybe brainstorm about what I can do to help.
Ophira: Yeah. Or, I mean, literally show up and let's go for coffee.
Erin: Yeah.
Ophira: Like, literally show up and take me physically. I remember at one point, someone did say to me, if there's anything I can do, let me know. And I said, could you come and do my laundry? And they were like, ha ha ha ha. And I was like, I'm serious. You want. I'm giving you an idea.
Erin: Oh, they should have said, and do my laundry.
Ophira: Yeah. They were like, are you serious? And then, of course, I got all like, oh, maybe it's. Sorry.
Erin: Yeah, right.
Ophira: So, anyways, I feel like some of the toxic positivity stuff gives people the wrong words to say when someone is going through something and they need real, real humanity, it's, like, in the place of real humanity, I'm not saying don't be positive. I'm just saying this shit. And then I just don't like it in the profitable, like, little sign.
Erin: Yeah, yeah.
Ophira: The home sense sign.
Erin: Yeah, totally.
Ophira: Live. Love, laugh. That's a joke.
Erin: But, yeah, I mean, but ofira, like, that's what we want to do. We want to live. We want to love.
Ophira: We want to love.
Erin: We want to laugh.
Ophira: We want to laugh.
Erin: You should reclaim that.
Ophira: I have a joke right now, and I'll, you know, please, anyone listening says, come see my act. And I promise there's more than this joke. But I just have a joke about, because this stuff's so out there. I even saw it in a doctor's waiting room, and I was just thinking how, like, do you want to know everyone around you is on a self esteem journey? Like, do you want to be wheeled into surgery and see that your surgeon has above the operating table? Showing up is 90%? Like, you would be like, no.
Erin: Believe in yourself. Yeah.
Ophira: You would be like, that's for, like, so then we also. Then we're also like, well, that's not for them. That's only for these people.
Erin: Oh, my God. That's amazing. No, I'd rather have a surgeon who's an arrogant fuck. That's who they're supposed to be.
Ophira: Right, exactly.
Erin: An excess of self confidence in that arena. Please. I love it.
Ophira: God, right? Megalomaniac with a God complex.
Erin: Yes.
Ophira: What happened to those people? Let's build some more megalomaniacs. Oh, you're right. I don't want that either.
Erin: You're right, you're right.
Ophira: I know. I know that person.
Erin: Yeah, we all do. We all do. They run everything.
Ophira: Exactly.
Erin: Yeah.
Ophira: So, yeah, I love. Anyways, you may say it's an easy target positivity, but. And you might say I am an optimist. I am just a cynical optimist. That is what I am.
Erin: I think that's honest, but I think that's honest. And, like, I don't know how we figure out how to be happy if we're not honest, you know?
Ophira: Yeah. I mean, I am. So I really look at this world like, tomorrow is going to be a better day. I really look at it like that all the time. I have my entire life. I'm a very much look forward person. Even with parenting has done a lot of that to me because you have to things. The struggle in the moment can be so insane.
Even when you're just dealing with, like, a fussy toddler, you know, these things feel paramount and you have to. It was, you know, it was a hard lesson just learning that it changes so quickly and you have to, I don't know, like, just give yourself into the fact that that's gonna happen and.
Erin: Step back a bit and be grateful for the fact that it's gonna change. Because for me, like, when the things have been the hardest in parenting, I have. I have leaned into the idea that, like, this is just today, this is just for now.
Ophira: Can't wait for this to change.
Erin: This will evolve. Everything will shift. I mean, as my kids are going from being kids to being teenagers, we're in, like, a liminal stage. And it's my favorite word. Yeah. And I love it. I love them. I love their weird changeling selves.
Like, I love that they're discovering who they are and. But there's a lot of feelings, there's a lot of puberty, and there's a lot of hormones, and it's not always going to be like this, you know?
Ophira: Yeah.
Erin: And so, yeah, for me, that's the only thing I really know about parenting is, like, just try to show up as things evolve. That's--and don't get too locked.
Ophira: Exactly.
Erin: Yeah. Don't get too locked in.
Ophira: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's hard. That's a hard lesson. The, you know, the. The true, like, letting go is that's what every single positive affirmation should read. Because, man, that is what we have to do sometimes. It's like, let it go.
Erin: Yeah, let it go. Don't hold so tight.
Ophira: Yeah, don't hold so tight. Yeah. Unless you're talking about, you know, abortion rights.
Erin: Hold, please. Scratch and claw. For those of you, I love this conversation, I'm going to ask you the question that I've asked everyone who's come on this podcast, which is, are there any deal terms in your life today? Tacit or. What's the opposite of tacit? Explicit. Yeah. Spoken or unspoken. How about that? That you would like to renegotiate? Because I think we always feel like whatever it is that we've agreed to and the way our lives are set up and the way we do things are fixed and they're not. And.
Ophira: Yeah, yeah.
Erin: So I'm curious about that for you.
Ophira: You know, the main one I have, which is ongoing, and I need to renegotiate it, but it is. It's the one that I'm the scared. Most scared of is that, as a woman in my career, specific in general, I do think that if I did less and had more breath, if I had more time in these metaphorical compression chambers, or whatever they're called for the scuba divers, I think I would do better. But I have become such a master my whole life of doing so much. And I think most women feel like this. Like, you look back at one day and you go, I lived five people's days in that one day. And it is. I think it is unsustainable.
But I also think if I could figure out how to just go, oh, this is gonna be really scary, but I'm doing half, and there might be a lot of stuff that gets kicked up about that. I think I would. I think I would do better.
Erin: Yeah. And maybe it's about building in just to start some of those compression chamber transition windows.
Ophira: It's hard. It's hard to allow yourself to do. Like, there you go. That's my self care. That would be my self care to figure out, you know, and part of that is that whole. Yes. Syndrome that we talked about. Like, I built my whole career, and even as a woman, just like, oh, you need this.
Yes. You need this. Yes. Even last night, I was on a gig and with a couple guys, it was very nice. And then, you know, they got ubered home. But I was going to be only ubered to Manhattan because I'm the only one that lives in Brooklyn, and I just let it happen. And I was like, God, I still. I'm still 22 years old.
Just being like, I'm good. I'm good. Don't worry about me. Don't worry about me. I know it would be. It would be preferable to everybody if I was invisible. I get it. I'll be smaller. Look at me. How small I am.
Erin: God damn it.
Ophira: And so it's like that. I would love to. You know, they call it there's the power of yes and there's the power of no. And I still feel increasingly that I have to be a yes person. I even. I feel like I have to. I never got into the mode where I was like, I'm going to say no, and maybe I'm wrong.
Erin: I wish you a whole bunch of no. I wish you sharp elbows to protect yourself and to keep people from encroaching on what you know you need. I'm so grateful for the work you're doing in the world. I'm so grateful for your voice and your point of view and for coming on to talk. I just really appreciate it, and I love knowing you.
Ophira: I love knowing you, too, Erin. I'm so glad to reconnect. Thank you.
Erin: Thank you. All right, everybody, I'm gonna put all of Ophira's information into the show notes. But, Ophira, can you tell people where to find you?
Ophira: Absolutely. Most importantly, I am on venmo. Send cash, send cold card cash. All of my shows, like, I play live a lot ophiraisenberg.com but I also posted on my socials. Please follow me. Getting a following is all anyone cares about in my career, as it turns out. And so, by the way, there's something that people don't know. When you start stand up comedy, you do something called Bringer shows because you're an amateur stand up.
And so the New York clubs and clubs go great. You're gonna perform, but you need to bring five of your friends. Cause that's how they're gonna fill a crowd. Cause who wants to go to an open mic? Nighthead? Well, guess what, everybody. Now, every show is a bringer show because every club goes great. We're doing zero marketing. Can you bring your crowd?
Erin: Well, hopefully hotter than ever listeners will become part of your crowd.
Ophira: Follow me. I'm at adofirae is my point. So follow me. It's fun. I promise you'll have a good time.
Erin: And listen to parenting as a joke. It's wonderful.
Ophira: Thank you. Yeah, you can find it. As you say, as you say. Aaron. Wherever you can find podcasts.
Erin: Thanks for listening to Hotter Than Ever. If you loved this conversation, please leave me a five star review on Apple Podcasts. Your honest, heartfelt feedback means the world to me and to future listeners of the show. Also, tell your friends that maybe it's a good idea to listen to hotter than ever. Share this very episode. It's so easy and your friend can talk about it, share stories from your own lives, and get closer and feel inspired and lit up. It's just a virtuous cycle.
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